Why do PSGs sound different to one another?

[ZakTF]

Hi,

I'm sure this has been asked before, but:

I'm curious if anyone can explain to me why different pedal steel guitars sound different to one another?
(For example, why do Fender steel guitars sound different to 60's Emmons push pulls? and why do they both sound different to modern GFIs?)

I'm guessing the unique tone of an individual guitar is mostly affected by the pickup, and by the actual mechanical workings of the guitar? But I'm also curious about scale lenght, and how different scale lenghts affect the tone of a PSG?

Zak

[JohnDavisStringsHere]

[b]Zak, I think that while the pick up and the mechanics of the guitar will have some effect on the tone, I believe the main difference is the resonance that the guitar creates or the absence of resonance in the guitar.
I once had a mullen guitar that had no resonance And seemed tone dead to me, When you looked at how the mechanism was fixed to the guitar by a couple of tiny screws there was really nothing for the resonance to travel through the guitar and come out of the amplifier.
If you look at the mechanism on a push Pull, You have 10 pretensioned Springs holding the fingers hard up against the body of the guitar That design just has to resonate./b]

[ZakTF]

Thanks for your response John. That is interesting. In what way was the Mullen tone dead? As the thing that started me wondering these things is the difference in sound between my Mullen, and Fess. The Mullen has superior top end and is much more solid feeling and easier to play, but the Fess has something in the sound that the Mullen lacks, and I don't know what it is.

[JohnDavisStringsHere]

Maybe tone dead is a little strong what I meant was compared to my old push pull which is a tone monster......it was a fairly old Mullen and they have come a long way now with The G2 give me a ring and I will tell you the whole sad story..............

[Willie Gamble]

Zac, there are many variables as to why one guitar sounds different from another.
1/ The wood, or other such material used in the construction process.
2/ The pickup.
3/ the amp.
4/ The player, and I happen to think that this is the most important factor.
I have played many and various makes of guitars in my 40+ years and through a multitude of different amps, and I can honestly say ( to my eternal shame) I have managed to sound like me through them all.
The advancements made in the engineering of these wonderful instruments has now reached a level that could only be dreamt of when most of us old codgers started. it is now a more level playing field as I'm sure you can imagine. When you go back in the mists of time to when it was literally a cottage industry you would get, on occasion, one particular instrument that was way above the rest in terms of tone and sustain, but now with the advent of CNC machines all the parts are virtually identical, the winding of the pickups is more regulated than they were in the past, some manufacturers used to wind them on an old sewing machine.
in short, they are all made to a very high standard, higher even than we could have imagined.
When the likes of John Davies, Donny Johnston, Ken Byng, Bob Adams, Derek Thurlby, Billy McKillop, Billy Murdoch and Malcolm McMaster and all the other players over a certain age began our steel journey, you were extremely lucky to find a music shop which sold steels in the first place, let alone a good one, as a result you didn't have much of a choice, and the tuition material was, shall we say, at best, thin on the ground. ( Winnie Winston Steel guitar book and The Sho Bud book were it, as far up here goes. Now with YouTube as old Arthur Daily would say the world is your lobster.
Zac, a good tip for finding and selecting a good guitar, as far as sustain goes is this, try it yourself, Rake the strings firmly with you finger and hold one of the back legs firmly and see how long the sustain lasts ( vibrations )

I hope this information is of some use to you
regards
Asleep at the steel

[ZakTF]

Thanks for you response Willie. Very interesting things to think about. I've heard people mention the hit and miss nature of some older instruments, and I've had a few Gibson guitars from the 1970s and even though they were mass produced instruments, they were certainly not all created equal.. I imagine it's a much worse case in the pedal steel world.

My guitar teacher would be around 80 if he was still alive, and he also used to tell me just how much easier younger people have it today, with an abundance of learning materials around, and many good free ones... although I must admit, while there are plenty of free E9 lessons on youtube, there's barely anything for C6.. Took me a long time to make sense of it.

[Danny Mitchell]

I don't really feel qualified to add much, Zak, but I feel there wasn't a great deal of difference, in actual tone produced, between the two guitars I have owned. A Carter Starter and a GFI Ultra keyless Shocking and blasphemous, to boot, I know!!!

In my defence, there was a total difference in the way I played them both though, the Carter had a very loose and inaccurate action/response in its pedals and levers, resulting in a timid and hesitant approach in my playing, whereas with the nice action of the GFI, I could produce an array of bum notes with confident, aplomb, and be quite happy with the resulting tone.

Good topic.

[Willie Gamble]

Methinks Daniel speeketh s"'!e, he never has produced bum notes,with or without aplomb

Asleep at the steel

[Danny Mitchell]

Methinks Daniel speeketh s"'!e, he never has produced bum notes,with or without aplomb

Asleep at the steel

Ha, ha! Willie, it is my family's favourite disputatious standpoint, that I produce bum notes from both ends, sometimes simultaneously. At times humbly, at times with aplomb, but never with apology.

To return to the thread, I humbly posit, that the perception of the tone may be impacted by the attitude of the picker, be it timorous or gallus.
( me! That was a mouthful, as the actress once said to the Bishop.)

[Ken Byng]

I have to agree with Mr Gamble on the players aspect. I have listened to many of Tommy White's YT clips, and if I closed my eyes I would struggle to differentiate between all of the different guitars that he has played. I will say though, that the DVD I have of Tommy playing a black Emmons push pull through a Webb amp shows that the tone through that rig is outstanding. Even Tommy admitted as much once when I complimented his tone with that rig.

I could say something about scale length as it's important, but the last time I said something about it on here, WW3 erupted.

Re pickups, I have an MSA that takes interchangeable pickups (5 in total). The only pickup that I can hear a difference with is the Alumitone, which has a fractionally warmer tone than the others. It is VERY fractionally warmer.

My all pull guitars sound very similar, with no perceptible difference with guitars that have wooden necks and those with aluminium necks. Even those guitars with single coil pickups sound very similar to those with humbuckers. So bottom line is that the only guitar I can hear a difference with is my Emmons push pull. Not a huge difference but a bigger upper mid range than the all pulls.

For Zak, I had a beautiful red lacquer Mullen Royal Precision, which had a very clean tone especially in the higher registers. It had good sustain and string separation. Tommy White exclusively uses his Mullen Royal Precision these days, and he has a whole range of Mullens to choose from.

As Willie said, most of the modern steel guitar manufacturers are using CNC machines to get perfectly uniform build standard across their range.