Double 10 vs Universal 12

[ZakTF]

Hi,

I’m just wondering what people’s thoughts are on D10 vs U12?

I bought my Fessenden U12 on the 14th of June, and I have not played my Mullen D10 since that day.

So far, the universal tuning makes so much sense to me that I’ve been wondering why it isn’t more popular? I am no virtuoso at playing, but I can play my entire repertoire of E9 and C6 songs, on the U12, and swap between the “2 tunings” without having to alter my playing position.

At first, I did miss having the typical 9th string from the E9 tuning, but in a way, I think the tuning flows better without it, and I can lower my E to a D with my 5th pedal anyway, so the note is still there.

Anyway, I’d be interested in hearing any other opinions?

Maurice Anderson wrote a very interesting essay about the universal tuning, which I’ve linked below:

https://www.b0b.com/infoedu/future1.htm

Cheers

Zak

[Danny Mitchell]

What a great, insightful, article from Maurice Anderson. His theory would seem to match your experience, I would say, Zak. Especially his approach in thinking of the Universal tuning as a whole, musical, concept, as opposed to the, more commonly adopted, split E9/C6 one. Makes sense to me.
When upgrading from my Starter guitar, I was on the lookout for a Universal, but they seemed a bit like hen's teeth, and the 'must have' fever was on me! So, I sprung for a new E9, as my flexible friend couldn’t bend far enough to accommodate a new Uni.
All power to you, in your further excursions into the world of the Universal. I look forward to hearing some results.

[ZakTF]

It's a great essay isn't it Danny. Even just his thoughts on pedal steel guitar in general. I think the tuning being E9andB6 does help one realise how the "2 tunings" are related, in an easier way than thinking E9 and C6 (it did for me anyway).
And I know what you mean haha.. I think us UK players have to buy/play whatever we can find...

[Danny Mitchell]

You might well have seen this, Zak, and it's off topic, I'm afraid (apologies).
But, it's more wisdom from the deep mind of Maurice Anderson.

https://msapedalsteels.com/%22reeces-page%22

The man's inspirational.

[Ken Byng]

It's a great essay isn't it Danny. Even just his thoughts on pedal steel guitar in general. I think the tuning being E9andB6 does help one realise how the "2 tunings" are related, in an easier way than thinking E9 and C6 (it did for me anyway).
And I know what you mean haha.. I think us UK players have to buy/play whatever we can find...

Hi Zak
Maurice was a good friend of mine since the mid 70's, and I had a number of conversations with him on the merits of standard twin neck pedal steel and a single neck universal. His mother and brother were also friends of my wife and I. First and foremost I will say that Maurice's knowledge of music vastly exceeded most steel players who have ever lived. Incidentally, great players like Tommy White and Paul Franklin went to Maurice to expand their music knowledge base. He told me that players like Junior Knight could play any amount of country music on the Bb6 12 string universal tuning. I would respond with the question of why really great players like Buddy Emmons and Curly Chalker hadn't transferred their considerable skills to that of the uni. I brought Reece over to the UK in the 70's to do a series of seminars. He knocked us all out with some great jazz, swing and even Hawaiian playing, but he steered firmly clear of country tunes. He just wasn't interested.

As far as the universal tuning being the panacea for lugging around a heavy twin neck...........personally I don't believe it is. It's possible to get some of the country things from Bb6, and some of the C6 progressions. But not all - far from it. If it's not important to get the traditional E9th things that have developed over the last 60 plus years, or the C6 pedal setup pioneered all those years ago by Buddy Emmons, then the 12 string universal could provide pseudo E9th and C6th stuff and a whole lot more. Maurice could play piano type chord progressions on the uni tuning, and play things that I've never heard anyone else get from a pedal steel. But after all, he was the king of the universal tuning and knew it backwards.

[ZakTF]

Thanks Danny, I hadn't actually seen that page before, but I will be reading the rest of it later on. (I had a quick read of the part where he talks about practicing pedal steel guitar without using any pedals, very interesting stuff!).

Ken, it's great that you were friends, and I can believe it when you say "Maurice's knowledge of music vastly exceeded most steel players who have ever lived" haha. There are only a handful of recordings available on youtube, but he's quickly become one of my favourite players.

Just out of curiousity, do you have any examples of E9/C6 pieces that don't sound right on U12?

[Ken Byng]

....Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples of E9/C6 pieces that don't sound right on U12?

Difficult one to track down examples Zak, as really we are reliant on YouTube for those who play Uni. The immediate example that I've always felt that the C6 tuning beats the Universal is Panhandle Rag. Buddy Emmons version on C6 is so smooth sounding and the pedalled chords sound spot on compared to Maurice Anderson's version where his use of pedals is minimal.

[Danny Mitchell]

Zak, here's a couple of Joe Wright U12 country tunes that, IMHO, don't sound lacking, but then again I'm a fan of the man. In fact you could call me, Fandan, and I wouldn't take offence




And, how good is it to hear the likes of Ken's reminiscences. Some of our forum legends must have great tales from back in the day. We should have a thread called,
"Remember That Time....."

[ZakTF]

Ken, I agree with you on Panhandle rag. Buddy's version is very hard to beat IMO... Although I do think that Maurice could have played the song note for note the same as Buddy, if he'd wanted to. I'm working on a couple of my own recordings of the uni to put on youtube, but I may do a comparsion type video one day, and see if people can hear the difference between D10 and U12.

Fandan, I like Joe's playing too haha, really great player. There's a video lesson of his on youtube which is quite interesting.. And I'd like to read a "remember that time" thread too.

[mick hearn]

I have never had a go on a Universal. and all I have at my disposal is a few lap steels and Sho-Bud 10 string E9. Having seen the price of a Universal it is unlikely I will be getting one, and at the ripe old age of 76 I cannot see myself justifying getting one.

I think those who have seen me at the festivals know what I can achieve on a lap steel however there are shortcomings. I have recently been asked to play steel for a Hillbilly band doing the old early country from the 40's 50's and 60's and some other stuff thrown in for good measure. Now usually I can ad lib with the best of them however I felt at a bit of a loss. Usually a band leader would ask if I knew the song and my reply was "Just tell me what key it's in", and by the time we had gone through a verse and a chorus I was comfortable. I did not want to just copy the old styles of lap steeling as I found it rather restricting. I wanted to have a blast. Then sitting at home looking at the gig list I went on the E9, played around and decided from that moment on it would be the E9 that comes to the gigs. Why? Because of that E lower lever. Everything that I had ever played on C6 lap steel was there together with all the twists and turns plus the usual E9 sound. Of course what is lacking is the C6 pedals to get those big chords. And before you say it JD I have never had a boowah string so won't miss it. I shall still get my inspiration from those great players but at the end of the day it's gonna be me who is heard within the limitations in the guitar I have. Knowing what I know now would I go for a universal? With my style I would say "Yes".

As for the examples above - I love every one of them. As Joe Wright said "You can play every note that Buddy played but you will never sound like him" and that is very true. It's what is in the head that transfers to the hands. What is evident above is the thinking of each player and the way they play the song. What we should ask is what interpretation do we like best. You can have Buddy's guitar but you will never have his brain. Even so I intend to have a blast.

Now all I need is an ointment to get rid of the bruise on my knee from holding that E lever down for so long.