Jazz on the steel guitar, or is it ?

[Basil Henriques]

Now that we've found ONE country number with a min7b5, lets find some more. And meantime here's a trick to find out WHERE to use it.. ANY tune that has 1..7b..6/7... can use the chord and probably does..

ABBA used it, the Beatles used it, it was in use in the 20's and 30's in popular songs and is STILL in use, albeit surreptitiously hiding amongst the norm.

How do you use it ? Well, if the chord progression goes from a 1 to a 6/7th.... i.e. (In C) C, A7, then the passing chord is normally Bb or Bb6 or Gm6.. well the half diminished is the chord to use, how to find which one is simple:- find the dom7th of the 6/7th chord , in this case E7, keep the "E" name and add the m7b5 extension... and play it as an Em7b5..
Tune in question:- "Don't Blame Me" Modus operandi.. C= Don't ... Em7b5= Blame ... A7 = Me..
Bass line = C - E - A .. the band can still play the Gm6 or Bb6 but with the E bass it's kinda smart..

So conclusion = Gm6 with an E bass CAN be called Em7b5 .. Likewise Bb6th (Without the 5th) with an E bass = Em7b5

[Basil Henriques]

Roy, I don't need a can opener for Christmas, PLEASE keep the worms away from me just a little bit longer..
Unless of course it's that worm in the bottle of Tequila ..

[Paul Brennan]

And over the Em7-5 you can play a C7 scale. And a C7 scale is C mixolydian which is also an F ionian scale. So, when you encounter a Em7-5 chord you can think, "I can play notes from the C7 scale" or "I can play notes from the F scale". (3 frets down, 7 scale or 1 fret up major scale).

So, to improvise in music where these kind of chords crop up regularly, you need to have a bit of music theory under your belt. You can't just bluff your way through. However, that's just the beginning. Good jazz players don't just mechanically play the "correct" scales and arpeggios. They bring you on a journey inventing new melodies as they go.

[zbplayer]

Interesting site for the jazz/steel lovers http://www.steelguitarjazz.com/

[Ken Byng]

For instance, a REAL musician would consider the only REAL Jazz steel guitarist to be Buddy E.

REASON, the others are just using his licks and emulating what he played. He set the style and yardstick, and I'm afraid that the others are simply "trottin' behind"
That style of Steel playing BEFORE the Emmons Jazz album was more in the realms of "Swing" and was at a much lower level of improvisation.

Hi Basil
Far be it from me to challenge such an esteemed authority on all things steel guitar, but I am afraid that I have to take issue with the above statement. Both Curley Chalker and Maurice Anderson were playing 'swing steel' at the same time as Buddy Emmons in the 1950's. Emmons was certainly the first steel player to have a real stab at playing mainstream jazz on a solo album (Steel Guitar Jazz - which is a classic) but Chalker, Anderson and Tom Morrell were already transferring their western swing capabilities in the 1950's into the area of jazz and big band music.

Buddy was far from happy with his playing and his tone on the SGJ album. I know that because he told me first hand once at a steel convention. He also told me that Chalker was far and away the best jazz steel player in the world. Now some of that may have been false modesty, but it was straight from the horse's mouth. Neither Chalker or Anderson copied or emulated Emmons' licks or what he played. Both had their own versions of 6th tunings in the early 60's, but more importantly both had their own styles. Emmons was very much a single note player, punctuating with chords here and there. He was, and still is, very knowledgable musically. Chalker and Anderson were both players of the old school who played huge piano type chords throughout their pieces, with contrapuntal bass string parts.

Now to say a 'REAL musician would consider the only REAL Jazz steel guitarist to be Buddy E' would justify that comment by saying; REASON, the others are just using his licks and emulating what he played. He set the style and yardstick, and I'm afraid that the others are simply "trottin' behind" is slightly non-sensical. That would equate to saying that the only REAL jazz piano player is Art Tatum for the same reason. So therefore on the same grounds, Oscar Peterson would not be a bona fide jazz player because Art Tatum did it first. I don't think so somehow.

Emmons is a unique musician who is a giant in his field and will always be considered a legend of the instrument. But to dismiss other steel players as merely copyists, incapable of playing real jazz because he did it first is ridiculous. Doug Jernigan, influenced by Emmons yes, but nevertheless plays jazz on pedal steel as good as anyone ever has. I know that because he has sat in front of me one to one and played some of the most amazing improvisation that I have ever heard. Herby Wallace - a jazzer of great ability prior to his stroke. Tom Morrell - one of the best improvisers on steel guitar that has ever lived. Reece Anderson is considered by most of the great players to be an out and out jazz player. Paul Franklin, Tommy White and Steve Palousek are all monster players who will all say unanimously that Anderson is up there with Emmons as a player of jazz on the steel guitar. I would never argue with them as they are dead right.

[Basil Henriques]

Ken, we must agree to disagree. Firstly, as you say, "Both Curley Chalker and Maurice Anderson were playing 'swing steel' at the same time as Buddy Emmons in the 1950's."
Both of them unbelievable talented musicians and players. Did they say they played jazz ? I only ask 'cause I don't know the answer. As for the players that came along AFTER Buddy's Jazz Steel Guitar album, when I listen to them I hear more than just shades of buddy's improvisations, at time I hear complete sections plagiarised.

Curley Chalker, Maurice Anderson and Buddy Emmons were each uniquely different and INSTANTLY recognisably so, I can't hear the same originality, flair and inventiveness in those that followed. Notwithstanding that, I do believe that there are many accomplished players who play very clever Swing and BeBop styles.

I thinks that it's an accepted fact that in the world of jazz, there is strict jazz and then the diversion to the Great American Song Book of "Standards and Evergreens, the playing of which is more a light relief than serious jazz playing.
There are also standards in the world of Jazz that are "Jazz Standards" Far removed from the Tin Pan Alley type of tunes that are "Swung" in the name of Jazz.
Swing steel, I don't think that equates to jazz on the steel guitar, neither does the ability to improvise equate to jazz per se.

The two examples I quoted are excellent examples of Swing versus real Jazz, a slow standard, There Will Never be Another You and a quick one, Oleo
The first Lightly swung initially then heavily improvised with a lot of "Musical Quotes" and unrehearsed interplay. The second one "Highly Technical" very tight interplay split into Eights initially then full chorus', again a lot of intercommunication and all "ad Lib" with tremendous dexterity, and following the accepted norm of a Jazz Standard.
I am fortunate to have a close friend who is a professor of American Music at the South Dakota State University
I shall get him to write a short "Confirmation or rebuttal" to my points..
http://www.sdstate.edu/mus/staff/anthony-lis.cfm
http://www.internationalcountrymusic.org/schedule.html

Whilst you use piano players as an example, I must point out that Errol Garner, George shearing and many others played COMPLETELY differing styles, whereas in the steel guitar world the "Jazz Player" is not so individually recognisable as an individual stylist. I say Jazz and Not "Swing" or BeBop" they are different genre's.

You quoted me and missed out the previous sentence "playing standards and swinging them slightly doesn't qualify as jazz per se, at least not in the realms of 'Real Musicians"' or indeed respected Jazz Critics."
I am pretty sure you'll not find a respected Jazz Critic who will recognise that jazz has or is being played on the steel guitar..

The Jazz aficionados (Who after all set the defining critera) in any of the jazz related publications, to my knowledge, have never placed any steel player in their specific corner of the musical world.

I HAVE read a lot of the definitions of jazz that have been postulated over the years, and If I condensed all to a defining criteria in MY MIND, (and only my view is what give) I personally haven't heard a performance other than Buddy's on the Jazz Album that I would classify as jazz.

As I said in the preamble, we must agree to disagree..
I of course respect you viewpoint and opinion, notwithstanding that, I do feel free to persuade you to see mine..

I did say at the onset of this thread :-

This could well become a

[Uncle Roy]

Baz I still prefer a tin of beans

[Basil Henriques]

Roy, I don't know about beanz, but pat and I can't forget the FANTASTIC Fish & Chips at 186 High St
Oldland Common, Bristol BS30 9QQ



We often take a detour whenever we're nearby..Just because..

[Ken Byng]

Basil
I am not an expert on jazz - just an enthusiast who knows what I enjoy listening to. My favourite jazz players are Ben Webster, Sonny Rollins and Coleman Hawkins (tenor sax), Oscar Peterson, Bill Evans and Art Tatum (piano) and Joe Pass and Barney Kessel (guitar). They all have the same qualities - they play from the heart as well as having incredible musicality. They also have places in my record collection.

There are many accredited and critically acclaimed jazz musicians past and present who could not read a note of music, especially those who came from an under previliged background. This does not make them any less capable, but musical snobs might demean them for their lack of formal knowledge. They may not even regard them as REAL musicians. The common thread is that all of them have picked up the baton of their chosen instruments from predecessors and moved off into different directions in the jazz genre. They are no lesser players for not being originators.

[JohnDavisStringsHere]

Baz, Please don`t post the worms any more....., makes me feel hungry every time I see`em!! especially with the chip shop as a back drop. I know I don`t belong in this thread so I`m off now ....>>>>>>>