Packing under Telonics pickup

[TonyT]

Hi, when I purchased my WBS custom it was second hand, the previous owner had changed the pick up to a Telonics 84, dual pole adjustable pickup. It has been packed under the pickup with foam rubber. I am about to change the strings so a good time to sort it out!
My question is, which will transfer the best sound under the pickup -Springs, Surgical rubber or the Foam rubber?
Thanks for the anticipated answers. Tony

[JohnDavisStringsHere]

Hi Tony, my friend the late Bobby Bowman was a great steel mechanic and he would pack solid under the pick up once he had established the height, his take on it was the resonance of the guitar would be lost in transmission
through foam rubber etc. ,not sure if that would apply to a push pull as they have loads of resonance.

[simon_f3]

Tony, please forgive me butting in to this thread, but I think this would have to be a trial and error case - i.e. change the mounting and see if it makes any difference. I've just been thinking about the science behind tone (the thread about bars in the Steel Guitar Cafe forum), and I figure that, for a pickup, you want it to ideally remain completely still whilst the string vibrates in the magnetic field. Or at least from electric guitar theory, the output signal is created by the string vibrating with respect to the pickup's magnetic field, so if the pickup is absolutely still then you should get the 'true' sound of the guitar coming through.

If the pickup also vibrates then the effect could be either a bit more signal (if it vibrates out of phase with the string), or a bit less signal (if it vibrates in phase with the string). I can't see this effect being particularly noticeable though, as the strings will vibrate up to maybe 1mm peak to peak, whereas the pickup might move a couple of microns at the same frequency! The resonance of the guitar, i.e. the sustain from the cabinet, should not be affected by the pickup mounting unless there is loads of foam rubber acting like a damper on the cabinet - but there would need to be lots and lots! I just googled the Telonics 84 pickup and found a nice document by Telonics which also includes installation instructions - don't know if you would already have this but here it is: https://www.telonics.com/products/proaudio/downloads/Pickups_InstallationAndUsage120611.pdf

John's suggestion of a solid mounted pickup sounds like a good place to start - I believe that the only real purpose of springs or rubber on the adjusting screws of pickups is to keep the pickup in position, and stop the vibrations from causing the adjusting screws to turn. I just looked at my Sho-Bud and the pickups are mounted to the cast section via very very strong springs - near enough solid. No way those are going to turn on their own!

I'm very happy to be corrected on any of the above - I am thinking about this from an Engineer's perspective, but I have no experience of modifying the pickups in steel guitars. I'm just a bit over-enthusiastic about the scientific side, mainly because I am better at that than I am at actually playing the guitar!

Hope you get it sorted anyway

[TonyT]

Many thanks John and Simon.
Yes thanks I do have the installation download, I must read again, for the 50th time cos I thought they recommended springs! Brain getting dull!

Ok, this is the sort of suggestions that I was hoping for.
On the USA sites they suggest the options I put above, I wasn't happy with any of those really, unless thats how it "must" be done!
Packing, as you both suggested, now makes a lot of sense, while my brain can't cope with the science my thinking was that all that foam must be a form of " dampener ". As the pick up poles are fully adjustable solid is good.
So I have wood, alloy or carbon fibre? Any suggested preference from either of you please?

[JohnDavisStringsHere]

Not my idea Sid just something Bobby used to do he was of the opinion that it improved the tone and I can understand his reasoning, he was a
Respected steel mechanic .

[TonyT]

I'm pretty sure you know what your doing sir John, your our respected steel mechanic!
I'm sold on the packing, thanks John

[JohnDavisStringsHere]

Tony, I would suggest if your trying to capture the resonance of the guitar a solid bit of hardwood mounted directly onto the body should work well, but bear in mind I am only guessing.........

[TonyT]

Simon, I'm definitely going the solid way but just read the instalation on page 11 paragraph 5. It mentions springs, I still didn't see any other suggestions, unless the eyes are on the way out as well!

Edit. See below!

[TonyT]

John.
I have some phenolic plywood, that is shown in the in the instructions, as used on MSA apparently, I must agree I would have thought hardwood would be best. Thanks

[simon_f3]

Just a quick thought - if you don't want to use springs then a few washers in place of the spring would provide a solid mounting, and would be easy to adjust to get the height right. Might be a simpler solution to making wooden mounts?