Delay effect

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Delay effect

Postby Zumbilly(Murdoch) » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:40 am

Hi all,
I use a digital delay which I usually set at 320m/s with
about 4 repeats and have the mix quite low, probably about 8 or 9%.
I also put(a very little)reverb in too.
I have always used delay(various units)and when I play without it, it is like swimming without flippers after You have been using them for a while.
On Sat at the wee pub gig I had'nt noticed that the knob which sets the repeats had been in a different position when We fired up.It was set at about 40%.
I was getting a pretty good sound and thought that it was My technique improving :o I didnt notice the setting until I changed to play My Strat,I of course reset the delay to My usual setting and continued for the rest of the evening.
This morning I was fooling around with the settings and tried the "more repeat" setting and found that if I keep the mix down low it really does sound pretty good. Is this just a change in what My ears are used to?
I would guess that delay and reverb are the most used, or abused effects for steel players.
How do Y'All set Your'n
Billy
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Re: Delay effect

Postby Zumbilly(Murdoch) » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:35 pm

I guess I am the only guy using a delay.
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Re: Delay effect

Postby Zebedee » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:18 pm

Billy,
I am confused by your first post, because 'mix' usually refers to how loud the repeats are, not how many.

You say that you increased the delay percentage, does that mean that the repeats were louder, but still only 4 of them, or
do you mean that you kept the volume of the repeats the same, but increased the number of repeats ?
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Re: Delay effect

Postby Dave Nutt » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:59 pm

Hiya Billy, I dont use delay so didnt put my pennyworth in.
Im a steel guitar/amp and bit of reverb type myself, anything more and its just not what I want.

Delay/Echo call it what you like, it cannot be used without affecting the tonal quality of the original string to pickup sound. OK! used sparingly has its uses,especially in the studio, but Im sure we have all heard dreadfull sounds brought about through the use of overdone effects.

Regarding your obvious frustration at the lack of response from Echo users?? have we not been there before?
Im really not sure what members want. During the first week of this site, Dave Hartley took a lot of time to post some very in depth info regarding his recording techniques, responses? 'not a friggin chance' Derek Thurlby looked in, any welcome?response? yep! a loud resounding one!! from Bob only. These guys are without doubt in the top echelon of the UK steel scene, two of the only full time steelies we have left, so so much to contribute to all on here. Dave Kirk looked in at the old site,and then again on here during our first week. (Knowing Dave he must have thought he had entered a morgue)

I have been a member now for a couple of years, I have always wondered why the 'real big boys' never get on here, we dont have to look to far do we?

Billy, It doesnt go unoticed how you yourself continually post items of interest, always trying hard to generate some response, seen it all before, our Eddie, Baz Gaskell,even myself, gets very frustrating doesnt it?

This new site has been put together through some very hard work, for all our benefits, lets hope the 'old site lethargy' isnt setting in already.

Pity your not closer geographically, you and I could talk steel to ourselves. ;)

Delay? Echo? naaaagh. stick it straight through the amp, it will be great, 'dem out der in the crowd' couldnt give a toss about delay, its a pure pedal steel guitar sound they want to hear.
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Re: Delay effect, YOU DID ASK !

Postby Basil Henriques » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:41 pm

Mr. Springy (How's Florence BTW?), I believe that Zumbilly is alluding to "Regeneration" or maybe the overall effects level in the mix, either way, going THROUGH a pedal/rack or whatever, ISN'T the correct modus operandi.

The steel's tonality will be altered by the extra circuitry, no matter how high a quality the effects unit is.
(As Dave Nutt has already pointed out)

Pioneered by Les Paul, since the late 1940's the use of reverb and echo mixed in with the original signal has enhanced instrument sounds and overall recordings: ALWAYS used in a send/return mode WET ONLY..
The original signal is enhanced by the addition of the effect in this way, that's what the send/return sockets are for, leaving the CLEAN DRY signal on the input of the amp or mixer.

It's standard studio/PA engineering practise to use effects in this way to preserve the quality of the original signal and to prevent phase problems cancelling out random frequencies.
Most effects pedals are mono in stereo out with a facility to alter the direct signal level vis a vis the effected one.

The stereo out (When mono'd) can cause quite sever cancelling of various frequencies, in particular bottom end ones.
When used in the stereo mode, delay parameters on the left and right outputs are DELIBERATELY different, to enhance the stereo image and create a larger perceived sound. In a mono stage situation, it is best to just use the output of ONE of the channels, but if possible the other COULD be routed to the PA and would considerably enhance the effect.

Dunny's unit addresses these problems and that's why it's so "CLEAN" sounding.
Most recording steel players that I know either record semi dry and "Sweeten" later, OR record in Stereo. I know of very few who migrate that method to their live situation, but those who do, have a stereo stage setup.

Although a single source sounding instrument with no panning of the spectrum of notes played, the use of stereo effects does considerably enhance not only the sound delivered to the audience, but also makes the playing experience MUCH more pleasurable.

I'm often amazed at the number of bands using MONO PA systems, or at least, a stereo system with everything panned centre. For the life of me I can't understand why. Or, even worse, playing stereo tracks through a stereo PA but using MONO effects on the instruments, and no effects on the desk except reverb on the vocals, usually fed and returned incorrectly.
Stereo existed in recordings from 1931 and had been experimented with before 1930. The fidelity of the 1934 EMI Abbey road session recordings (made by Alan Blumlein, an EMI research engineer, whose contribution to the invention of stereo sound is only now starting to be appreciated,) of Sir Thomas Beecham conducting the London Philharmonic Orchestra is far from 300 to 4Khz that some think is the norm for that era..It has been digitally restored to the original quality and has proven to be virtually full range, not sonically in a dynamic sense but definitely falling within the normal criteria for "Hi Fi" As a recent BBC broadcast of the original has confirmed.

Just "Google Alan Blumlein , or go here to read more about the TRUE history of Stereo and Even Surround Sound which Alan Blumlein patented in ..... 1931

The salient point are
Blumlein lodged the patent for "binaural "sound, in 1931, in a paper which patented stereo records, stereo films and also surround sound.

By 1935 it was concluded that amplifiers and speakers with a frequency response of 20hz to 20Khz would be needed to accurately reproduce recorded sound. in the UK by the late 30's that goal had been achieved by Both the BBC and EMI with the aid of Blumlein and his fellow engineers..

Ooops, I forgot to mention Harvey Fletcher and his research assistant Winston Nelson.
In 1933, Fletcher and his research group had successfully transmitted a live performance at the Academy of Music in Philadelphia over AT&T telephone lines to Constitution Hall in Washington, D.C. The audience in Washington had been invited to hear a concert of Bach, Beethoven, Debussy, and Wagner by the Philadelphia Orchestra. They sat facing a closed curtain, behind which they believed the actual orchestra was playing. In Philadelphia, the assistant conductor was leading the orchestra, while in the back of the Washington hall, Maestro Leopold Stokowski used a control unit to manipulate the amplifiers of the three-channel system so that the dynamic range of the sound coming from the speakers went beyond what was possible from the signals in Philadelphia. By adjusting levels, Stokowski could make parts of the orchestra come in higher and lower as he saw fit. It was a convincing demonstration of the possibilities of live stereophonic sound reproduction. When the curtain parted at the end of the performance, the people gasped to find a bank of loudspeakers producing the music, not a live orchestra. A few years later, Fletcher’s team returned — this time with a four-track optical film recording technique that offered greater fidelity and dynamic range. Fletcher specifically requested the orchestra to play Stravinsky’s Firebird Suite because its rich harmonic structure and thundering climaxes showed off the system’s advanced technology.
See THIS

Back to the OP Question,
How do Y'All set Your'n
Billy

I use compressssion, reverb and delay IN Stereo, Left channel into my amp (Which is D.I.'d) and right channel into the desk. AND steel/electric guitar/midi etc CLEAN fed to the desk. Failing the need to put the steel through the PA, I use two of my NV112's judiciously placed.
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Re: Delay effect

Postby Zumbilly(Murdoch) » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:14 am

Thanks for replying Gents,at the moment I am still digesting these very informative messages and will not comment at this moment in time.
I will however explain to Burt zeb :) I usa a T.C.Electronic delay and the knob which controls the number of repeats is labelled Feedback and the knob which controls the wet/dry is labelled mix. I did probably cause confusion by saying I had the "repeat" knob at 40%,I hope I have made it a bit clearer and You can give some advice on the subject.
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Re: Delay effect

Postby steve honest » Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:13 am

And if i may pitch in on the delay use
you need to know the tempo of the piece you are playing, and then take that tempo and use it t divide 64'000 this will give you a millisecond setting to set your delay to hit on the beat, now if you want half beats divide it in half 1/4 beats, 1/8th beats and so on, this will make your delay really sweet and bounce in time with the track,
for live you will need a drummer that will play to the bpm s you guys agreed in practise, er so thats where the whole plan falls down.(lol)
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Re: Delay effect

Postby David Hartley » Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:46 pm

Hi guys. I have briefly read this thread a responses.. I didn't have to read to far into stuff until I though to myself;? Please try Mark Dunns steel mixer. Don't matter what delay you use cheap or expensive you will get what you want to hear. I won't go on but try it please. It will shown and played in Ireland by myself and mark and maybe others too. It is a steel guitarists heaven when using FX..

And when the add ons come!? You just wait and see?
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Re: Delay effect

Postby STEDDIE EDDIE » Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:46 pm

look forward to seeing and hearing the 'steel mixer' at ISGF this year, i will make a special effort to be there having missed the last four years owing to gigging commitments, i am interested in the steel mixer, but have my own reservations, which i did discuss briefly with Mark on the old forum, in that, and it relates to a recent thread about stage clutter, i just dont like pedals on the floor, obviously to the right of your steel guitar, two reasons, 1/ singers tramping on your delicate cables [i yelled at our singer only last week, for tapping his size 12 left foot onto my volume pedal connections on the steel] so what chance have floor pedal connections? 2/ if you have to alter settings, its not practical for some one, especially my height, or if you have a dodgy back, to be reaching down to the floor, i am at present, in the process of setting up my fx on an elevated stand, for both guitar and steel, which i intend to situate next to my steel, i will post pics when its fully set up, just to say it will take my signal from my amp into two totally independant channels, and i am leaving the option open to incorporate the steel mixer into this new set up.
However, getting back to the original subject of delay and reverb, i have always been an advocate of just reverb on steel, however, having recently purchased an 'ELECTRO HARMONIX' analog delay pedal for guitar, i decided to try it with the PSG, after reading a recent post on the 'steel guitar forum' where someone stated they never use reverb, just an analog delay pedal, because they reckon reverb muddies the sound, so i thought i would try it, and i was very surprised to find that i can obtain a very subtle and nice reverb type sound of this pedal, as well as a very subtle but tasteful delay, much cleaner than reverb, will gig it this coming weekend, but initial tests suggest that u.s. steelie is right about this particular analog delay being so much cleaner than a reverb pedal, it never dawned on me before now that reverb actually dirtys up the sound, unless used very subtly,
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Re: Delay effect

Postby Basil Henriques » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:43 am

I'm 1000% sure that the Steel Mixer by Dunny is an absolute godsend to those who use effects, having said that, the steel sounds and tone that a lot of us admire were created in the studios (in the good old USA) on the desk and usually were modified EMT plate+tape delay. Sorry to say that particular sound configuration is not easily duplicated.
Of course the player's ability also has a LOT to do with how the effects sound to the listener.
David's use of the repeat in OBS is a good example.

Having been regularly in the Nashville studios in the early seventies (overseeing production at Fireside and other 16th Av. Sth. Studios) and seen the process "First Hand" so to speak I can say with certainty that John Hughey, Weldon Myric and others of the "A Team" were more often than not using their own amp miked for studio listening continuity and direct (Mainly) for the recording process. Even Lloyd says that when using his Modified Fender with the 15" JBL cab he used MINIMAL reverb.(At the engineer's request)
In a nutshell, the use of effects in those days was in the hands of the sound engineer and producer and almost exclusively outboard equipment that cost a small fortune. (with the exception of the RCA cellar used on Jim Reeves Patsy Cline et al)
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