Ear Training
Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:07 pm
When ears were given out I was at the end of the queue and I got cloth ones.
I commence my tale by relating a time at primary school, We were about eight years old and had a very short time allotment for music which did'nt really teach us much at all,however the teacher played a bass sequence on the pianner and asked the class if they recognised the "song"No one seemed to recognise the piece although I had recognised it instantly,I tenativly rased My hand.The teacher did not know us by name and She said "Yes,the little blond haired cherub seems to know.
I answered that it was the National Anthem.Correct,Big swollen Chest and all that.(Me,not the music teacher)
I went on to have a great musical career in singing behind unlocked toilet doors
At a later time in My life, about which time I was engrossed in Bert's "Play in a Day" and strumming a guitar with about half a dozen mates,I recall asking "when do You change chords" I was informed that I would feel it or hear it. I guess I never really did.
After many years in a noisy industry I becme an overnight success when I pushed Myself into a pub band.Over the years I have struggled with "pitch"
In Glasgow if You play in a pub You get to back every Tom,Dick and the other guy,most of which do'nt know their key.I, almost never find their key,I have been with guitarists who van pick up a key in a nano sec.
I cannot sing in tune,probably because My "pitch" hearing is bad.
I have often wondered If these "Perfect pitch" courses actually work,can it be acquired?
I remember a guy who was worse than Me,He could not hear any difference when I strummed Emaj Emin E maj Emin in succession.
I read an article where Buddy Emmons answerd a question on what is needed to be a good steel player and He said (amongst othe things) a good ear to hear the changes.
Is there hope for Me.?
Billy
P.S I have tinnitus pretty bad but I can live with it.
I commence my tale by relating a time at primary school, We were about eight years old and had a very short time allotment for music which did'nt really teach us much at all,however the teacher played a bass sequence on the pianner and asked the class if they recognised the "song"No one seemed to recognise the piece although I had recognised it instantly,I tenativly rased My hand.The teacher did not know us by name and She said "Yes,the little blond haired cherub seems to know.
I answered that it was the National Anthem.Correct,Big swollen Chest and all that.(Me,not the music teacher)I went on to have a great musical career in singing behind unlocked toilet doors
At a later time in My life, about which time I was engrossed in Bert's "Play in a Day" and strumming a guitar with about half a dozen mates,I recall asking "when do You change chords" I was informed that I would feel it or hear it. I guess I never really did.
After many years in a noisy industry I becme an overnight success when I pushed Myself into a pub band.Over the years I have struggled with "pitch"
In Glasgow if You play in a pub You get to back every Tom,Dick and the other guy,most of which do'nt know their key.I, almost never find their key,I have been with guitarists who van pick up a key in a nano sec.
I cannot sing in tune,probably because My "pitch" hearing is bad.
I have often wondered If these "Perfect pitch" courses actually work,can it be acquired?
I remember a guy who was worse than Me,He could not hear any difference when I strummed Emaj Emin E maj Emin in succession.
I read an article where Buddy Emmons answerd a question on what is needed to be a good steel player and He said (amongst othe things) a good ear to hear the changes.
Is there hope for Me.?
Billy
P.S I have tinnitus pretty bad but I can live with it.
Re: Ear Training
Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:23 pm
Billy,
If you can't 'hear the changes', then you shouldn't be playing in a band.
As you do play in a band, then you must be able to 'hear the changes'
If your pitch is suspect, that's not a good thing if you play a fretless instrument
You should be able to find the key of any song within a few notes of the karaoke singer starting.
If you can't 'hear the changes', then you shouldn't be playing in a band.
As you do play in a band, then you must be able to 'hear the changes'
If your pitch is suspect, that's not a good thing if you play a fretless instrument
You should be able to find the key of any song within a few notes of the karaoke singer starting.
Re: Ear Training
Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:11 pm
Thaks for the confdence boost Zeb,
I probably Laid it on a bit thick when describing My musical ear.
I recently played with a lead player who has the best ear I have encountered.He hears everything and when the guest singers were doing songs(non country)which We had heard before but were not "musically"familiar with,my mate played them perfectly ,I refer to songs like Stardust,Beyond the sea,the more I see You etc.,
I was hinting in My earlier post about ear training,is it something that one can practise ?
I know there are people who can recognise any note or interval played.Did they learn it?or is it a gift.
Best regards
Billy
I probably Laid it on a bit thick when describing My musical ear.
I recently played with a lead player who has the best ear I have encountered.He hears everything and when the guest singers were doing songs(non country)which We had heard before but were not "musically"familiar with,my mate played them perfectly ,I refer to songs like Stardust,Beyond the sea,the more I see You etc.,
I was hinting in My earlier post about ear training,is it something that one can practise ?
I know there are people who can recognise any note or interval played.Did they learn it?or is it a gift.
Best regards
Billy
Re: Ear Training
Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:00 pm
It's a gift we ALL have, it's just not as developed and cultivated by some of us.
Firstly to be able to recognise chord changes you need to have a reference in your head that you use as a yardstick. As an example, the intro of Rinestone Cowboy has an unusual change (Well a change not found all the time)
It is a 1 and then a 1b7 chord.. i.e. in G, that would be G then F major, certainly not a change found in every song, but it shouldn't catch you out the second time you hear it in a song you're playing.
Simple yardsticks to apply to hearing intervals and chord changes are a personal thing based on your early musical experiences.
Having a store of these yardsticks at the ready, you should use them as a "Litmus Test" on a given change/interval.
Further you should develop more accurate ways of hearing the changes by PRACTISE.. WHENEVER you hear music you should ATTEMPT to recognise the changes.
Yardsticks that would help. To determine the top note of a chord:-
Root = the same note as the National Anthem
Third= the first note of Three Blind Mice
Fifth= the first note of Blue Moon /Misty or a plethora of others
To recognise a change from a 1 (Tonic) to a 4 (Sub-Dominant) mentally play the Common Bass walk up, if it doesn't fit, the probable chord is the 5 (Dominant)
Likewise, to recognise the 5 (Dominant) mentally play the common Bass walk down, if it doesn't fit the it's likely a change to a 4 (Sub Dominant)...BUT if it half fits and stops after two notes then the chord is likely a 6m (Relative minor) OR a 6/7,the following chords could be 2m or 2/7 or a 4 chord.
The common sequence of 1- 6m- 4- 5/7 is the usual early sixties type of change this in your mind could also be used to determine what the next chord is.
How do you detect a change to the double dominant a 2/7th chord. Well, one yardstick to test it with is the guitar lick in Stand by your man.
Of course these would be my own personal ways of doing it, as for you, you need to find changes you can use as YOUR yardsticks, coming from a different era to me you probably have entirely different memorable licks and changes in your hear. Categorise them and use them at EVERY opportunity, until it becomes second nature.. It WILL happen with practise.
Firstly to be able to recognise chord changes you need to have a reference in your head that you use as a yardstick. As an example, the intro of Rinestone Cowboy has an unusual change (Well a change not found all the time)
It is a 1 and then a 1b7 chord.. i.e. in G, that would be G then F major, certainly not a change found in every song, but it shouldn't catch you out the second time you hear it in a song you're playing.
Simple yardsticks to apply to hearing intervals and chord changes are a personal thing based on your early musical experiences.
Having a store of these yardsticks at the ready, you should use them as a "Litmus Test" on a given change/interval.
Further you should develop more accurate ways of hearing the changes by PRACTISE.. WHENEVER you hear music you should ATTEMPT to recognise the changes.
Yardsticks that would help. To determine the top note of a chord:-
Root = the same note as the National Anthem
Third= the first note of Three Blind Mice
Fifth= the first note of Blue Moon /Misty or a plethora of others
To recognise a change from a 1 (Tonic) to a 4 (Sub-Dominant) mentally play the Common Bass walk up, if it doesn't fit, the probable chord is the 5 (Dominant)
Likewise, to recognise the 5 (Dominant) mentally play the common Bass walk down, if it doesn't fit the it's likely a change to a 4 (Sub Dominant)...BUT if it half fits and stops after two notes then the chord is likely a 6m (Relative minor) OR a 6/7,the following chords could be 2m or 2/7 or a 4 chord.
The common sequence of 1- 6m- 4- 5/7 is the usual early sixties type of change this in your mind could also be used to determine what the next chord is.
How do you detect a change to the double dominant a 2/7th chord. Well, one yardstick to test it with is the guitar lick in Stand by your man.
Of course these would be my own personal ways of doing it, as for you, you need to find changes you can use as YOUR yardsticks, coming from a different era to me you probably have entirely different memorable licks and changes in your hear. Categorise them and use them at EVERY opportunity, until it becomes second nature.. It WILL happen with practise.
Re: Ear Training
Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:10 pm
Excellent advice Bas. Thanks.
Thanks.
Re: Ear Training
Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:32 pm
Expanding on Basil's theory you may find these helpful!
Simple when you know how!
Simple when you know how!
Re: Ear Training
Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:23 am
Bob,
The vids are indeed very helpful.
The first two were refreshers on My basic knowledge
The third was completely new to Me and will be extremely useful.I will watch it many times till it sinks in.
Thanks for the links.
Billy
The vids are indeed very helpful.
The first two were refreshers on My basic knowledge
The third was completely new to Me and will be extremely useful.I will watch it many times till it sinks in.
Thanks for the links.
Billy
Re: Ear Training
Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:56 am
One ambiguity in the third video, the MOST common name is "Circle of fifths"
The explanation of its usage is 100% though.
The explanation of its usage is 100% though.
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Re: Ear Training
Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:03 am
The terminology Circle of fourths is also explained by Karen Cuneo Ramirez in an unnatural way, BECAUSE if you look at the NORMAL commonly published chart, it goes sharps to the right and flats to the left, intimating forward for sharps and backwards for flats, the much more natural perception of pitch.
The most common chord change is a tonic to the dominant seventh, this being the basic TWO chord sequence, the commonest chord to make it a three chord sequence being the sub dominant.
Also note the relative minors are displayed in-line with the chord they relate to, e.g. C - Am, F - Dm etc.
Be aware that if you use the circle to work out minor keys, the 5 chord is nearly always a 5/7th Dominant seventh and the sub dominant is nearly always a 4m (Minor).
It's actually a series of calculations as to what chord comes next, ONCE the first change has been detected..All based on probabilities.
~It could be displayed as a chart of "either/or" and percentage probabilities..once started in your memory, it just builds and builds, it's essentially basic mathematics.
I'm most definitely NOT criticising the knowledge of Karen Cuneo Ramirez, but her terminology is suspect, and use of it could lead to problems understanding correct music theory.
If you REALLY want definitive theory, then subscribe to the Berklee College music theory classes "on-Line"
Here:- http://www.berkleemusic.com/music-theory
The most common chord change is a tonic to the dominant seventh, this being the basic TWO chord sequence, the commonest chord to make it a three chord sequence being the sub dominant.
Also note the relative minors are displayed in-line with the chord they relate to, e.g. C - Am, F - Dm etc.
Be aware that if you use the circle to work out minor keys, the 5 chord is nearly always a 5/7th Dominant seventh and the sub dominant is nearly always a 4m (Minor).
It's actually a series of calculations as to what chord comes next, ONCE the first change has been detected..All based on probabilities.
~It could be displayed as a chart of "either/or" and percentage probabilities..once started in your memory, it just builds and builds, it's essentially basic mathematics.
I'm most definitely NOT criticising the knowledge of Karen Cuneo Ramirez, but her terminology is suspect, and use of it could lead to problems understanding correct music theory.
If you REALLY want definitive theory, then subscribe to the Berklee College music theory classes "on-Line"
Here:- http://www.berkleemusic.com/music-theory
Re: Ear Training
Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:19 am
See what you’ve started Mr Murdoch! He’s off on one again! …
‘That Wuman’ was a note reader! It was brail to her, she couldn’t function without it! Her quest was to give a tutorial simplifying the structure in order to release players from similar bondage and equip them to play by ear! She achieved her goal.
My other half is one such note reader, give her the staff and she will rattle it off note perfect, take away the music and there’s nothing, zip it eh do da! The lights are on but nobody’s in! Countless nights at the Joanna have almost finished in tears with her trying to play some simple blues runs or a little Cramer lick, I take it for granted and she takes it as failure!
Now we come back to Billy’s point, our personal capability to comprehend the notes and the desire to identify them. On the limited times I have seen and heard you play Mr Murdoch I have detected an absolute passion for the PSG delivering a more than acceptable sound from someone who has been playing and entertaining on his chosen instrument for many years and you know what? That’ll do for me!
Basil, your knowledge of music from a mathematical prospective is undoubtedly profound and if I ever need to know where a floating fifth is to be found as it cavorts with an augmented Eb or Am I will ask no-one else! I mean it! And say it with the utmost respect; I think your achievement in this regard is to be applauded. As for us and I start with me! We are simple folks really who just loved the sound of the steel and set about trying to play it; frustrating as it has often seemed! I know numbers of us here without mentioning names would look at that ‘circle of fifths’ and more relate it to Stonehenge!
To the musical technicians and mathematicians among us we must appear simpletons but the love of this instrument will always remain. The flame will never be put out nor will the quest for perfection (in our own way!) subside.
‘That Wuman’ was a note reader! It was brail to her, she couldn’t function without it! Her quest was to give a tutorial simplifying the structure in order to release players from similar bondage and equip them to play by ear! She achieved her goal.
My other half is one such note reader, give her the staff and she will rattle it off note perfect, take away the music and there’s nothing, zip it eh do da! The lights are on but nobody’s in! Countless nights at the Joanna have almost finished in tears with her trying to play some simple blues runs or a little Cramer lick, I take it for granted and she takes it as failure!
Now we come back to Billy’s point, our personal capability to comprehend the notes and the desire to identify them. On the limited times I have seen and heard you play Mr Murdoch I have detected an absolute passion for the PSG delivering a more than acceptable sound from someone who has been playing and entertaining on his chosen instrument for many years and you know what? That’ll do for me!
Basil, your knowledge of music from a mathematical prospective is undoubtedly profound and if I ever need to know where a floating fifth is to be found as it cavorts with an augmented Eb or Am I will ask no-one else! I mean it! And say it with the utmost respect; I think your achievement in this regard is to be applauded. As for us and I start with me! We are simple folks really who just loved the sound of the steel and set about trying to play it; frustrating as it has often seemed! I know numbers of us here without mentioning names would look at that ‘circle of fifths’ and more relate it to Stonehenge!
To the musical technicians and mathematicians among us we must appear simpletons but the love of this instrument will always remain. The flame will never be put out nor will the quest for perfection (in our own way!) subside.