Compensator rods v The laws of Physics

[Donny Johnston]

Ken, I know you practice every day, I only have to use my ears to tell that. One of these days you may get it (write,) right Keep trying, Donny.

[Haddock]

A few good points there gents and thanks for the input. Yes Donny, I know i should just shut up and play but it’s so much fun doing the other stuff too. Plus when you start thinking about all this stuff it’s self perpetuating.
This is the first instrument ive played in 50 years that doesn’t have frets or keys and I’m loving the option to play 'properly' in tune. I can’t do it yet but starting with a level playing field can’t do any harm. I think one of the reasons so many people stick with older classic steels is that combination of issues that change the pitch, cabinet drop etc. My LDG actually had some very beneficial defects which meant certain things didn’t annoy as much. The MSA is a different class of engineering and consequently shows up any issues with the wonderful world of intonation. Of course good players will always sound 'on the money' but that’s down to skill and practice. But despite some of the pros saying they are tuned 'straight up' and using equal temperament, I reckon the instrument itself has other ideas and the end result is probably often more towards just intonation. I find myself wondering if one of the reasons so many folk come up and say they love the steel is that they enjoy hearing proper harmony. Like barbershop for instance. If a barbershop quartet are bang on in tune there is a phenomenon known as the fifth voice where a fifth harmony appears from the ether!
Has anyone ever checked their harmonies to see how close they are to perfect intervals? I could analyse audio files if anyone wanted to donate some?

Anyway, I’m wittering on and should drink some beer. But if anyone has input on the original question re the compensated f b thing I’d be grateful. Alternatively, I’ll report back next week after I’ve had the tools out again at the weekend and plan B is in operation. Plus I’ll have my Peterson and can bore you to death with numbers!

And for Stoney, it’s not difficult to play so don’t listen to anyone who says it is. Did a gig after 6 weeks which was ropey and gave everyone a laugh when it went wrong. Still got asked back though! Now, difficult to play well - perhaps they have a point......
Cheers
Calum

[Nick Bidmade]

I'll have to go and have a lie down!
String 7 (F#) No pedals or rods to compensate. or are you talking about string 1?
Confused.
And, are you putting an extra rod or a particular string? Is this the same principle that creates a 'split' tuning when the guitar doesn't have grub screws at the bridge end?

BTW, of all the strings that go out of tune on my guitar, it's string 7. No pulls, but it increases in tune by severalcents over a few days playing. How dos that happen?

[Haddock]

My string 7 and 1 are a good example of the compensator pull in action and this one is very well behaved. I have an extra pull driven by the B pedal on both 1 and 7 that slightly flattens them. When I’m open, no pedals, 1 and 7 are playing the 9th of the chord. When A and B are down, 1 and 7 are the 6th of the chord and without the extra pull would sound sharp. Didn’t used to be too much of an issue on my old guitar but it really makes a difference on this one. I can’t help on your tuning issue as mine doesn’t do that but then I have a 1 and 2 note raise on 7 which I use a lot.
Now I need a lie down......

[Haddock]

And I now have it from the horses mouth at MSA that Physics wins! What I am doing is raising a raise and as the finger never fully returns, this behaviour is normal. So now when I get the chance, I’m going to try plan B which involves something that I can’t find anywhere else on the internet. I’ll report in if it works.
Cheers

[Will C]

I'm with Calum and Ken on this. I too play Day style, and I noticed early on with this Williams U12 that when playing with A & F engaged, the 6th string goes unacceptably flat, so I added a compensator pull that raises 6 a few cents when I'm using the A pedal. I'm much happier with the voicing now.

[Jif]

Mitchell Smithey put the same compensator on my MSA with the A pedal slightly pulling up strings 3 and 6. I changed this to the F lever pulling up string 6 only as string 3 seemed OK and the return seemed a bit laggy on the A pedal. This works well for me and brings the AF combination into tune as was intended in the original rodding.

I have experienced the B pedal staying slightly sharp on string 6 on occasion as Calum describes, mainly when I go straight from an AF combination to an AB combination. If I slackened off the compensator rod this problem disappeared. I found that oiling the changer fixed the problem for a period of time and then I would have to lube the changer again to stop this happening. Probably needs done every couple of months though I haven't timed it exactly.

Recently I flushed the changer and re-lubed, not particularly to solve this problem but just as a routine maintenance measure, so far the problem has not resurfaced. My feeling is this is caused by the law of gunge rather than the laws of physics. I also recently bought a cover for my MSA to stop dust etc falling into the changer, if you compare my studio which rarely gets vacuumed, with the rest of my house which my wife takes care of, there is a considerable build up of dust over a short period of time. That same dust falling into the changer is bound to gunge up the finger mechanisms and very slight pulls such as from compensator rods are liable to suffer from sticky fingers, (if you'll forgive the expression!). So a little injection of oil when this problem starts sorts it for a while.

Just my humble opinion

[Ken Byng]

It's all down to one's ears probably. I can't bear to hear a chord that is slightly out of tune, and my playing improves greatly if I feel that my guitar is fully in tune. I listen to the odd youtube clip where someone is miles out of tune and I think to myself "Surely they can hear that they are out of tune" but obviously they don't. Compensators move strings to such a fine degree that once they are in place you very rarely have to touch them again.

[Haddock]

Hi Ken
Are you tuning JI or ET or some variation? ( that’s Just Intonation or Equal Temperement for anyone who hasn’t enjoyed the ongoing bun fights on all the US forums!). The whole concept of ‘in tune’ has got to be good for a massive debate or two......

Cheers
Calum

[Haddock]

Geoff, I need to see this set up of yours in action. When the guy who built it tells me its not possible, I’m kind of thinking you might be on to something! And tomorrow I’m going to try out my solution which will either be a major breakthrough or total bollocks!
And I may even find some time to play some music too.....
Cheers