Greetings GB Steelies! Your Wisdom Please...

[HonkyTonkDan90]

Hello all,

My name's Dan, I'm 29 years old, a [regular] guitarist of 15 years, from The Wirral (Merseyside) and, you guessed it, I want to carve out a niche for myself as a pedal steel player. Been a shy and ocasional visitor to the site for a little while, but it's only now that I've painstakingly saved up my target ammount of £2000 that I've finally got my act together and registered!

So obviously I've been doing some research and also received some great advice when chatting with Sam Outlaw's pedal player Matt (a brit) following an awesome gig back in October, the first of which was AVOID EBAY and REGISTER with thebritishsteeliessociety.co.uk, so kudos to him! So before I commit to purchasing anything, I'd just like to list the advice that I have so far received and the more people chip in with their two cents *ahem* pence, the better!

Firstly, the idea that I might give up is inconceivable. Right now my head is 100% on practicing my 6 string electric all the hours god gives me, and whilst I'm under no illusions that the pedal steel is going to be a new challenge entirely, if anything I'll simply be transferring the practice time over to the PSG. So with that in mind, I really want a high quality second hand instrument that is going to last me from being a complete novice through to [hopefully] one day being somewhere decent. I might only ever be able to afford one pedal steel! So here's what I've got:

1. Minimum 10 strings, 3 pedals, 4 knee levers. General concensus seems to be that you can go a long way with that, but any less will be too limiting before long.

2. Double or single neck? A little torn here. In terms of what I like/will want to play, it seems like a given that I like Country , but that's rather broad. Modern acts I love include Sam Outlaw and Margo Price, whilst equally I listen to the greats like Emmylou Harris, Waylon Jennings, and, of course, Hank Snr, plus Country Rock like Steve Earle, The Byrds, Poco, etc. So E9 for alot of stuff right, but more and more I find myself really getting into Western Swing; that stuff is so much fun to jam away with! Bob Wills & His Texas Playboys obviously, and really enjoying Wayne Hancock's 'Man Of The Road' atm. Far as I can tell out alot of that stuff is played in C6??

Pros of a double neck are obvious, but the cons? Apparently they're significantly heavier, which is a consideration but not massively so. I'm going to have my work cut out just figuring out what the hell is going on with E9, so there's the complexity side of things, but I'm trying to future proof myself here. Even if I don't touch C6 for the first couple years it's there when I need it!

So the real question is this; how much more should I expect to pay for a double neck versus a single neck of roughly the same quality? Another sound point Matt made was that he was playing a single neck with a double frame which helps enormously with fatigue, so if I go single, double frame is essential. I've also heard people mention that with some models, but apparently not others, it is possible to re-tune from E9 to C6, so if I do go single, how do I know if a model is capable of this?

3. Finally, manufacturers? Discuss!!
Sho-Bud, Emmons and ZumSteel seem to be the big ones that I hear mentioned alot. I'd like to know what peoples experiences are, either first hand or by reputation. Any other brands people care to mention would be appreciated too! I see that a double neck Carter has recently been posted for sale and I also know that my fellow Merseysider Ron Bennett is very highly respected in UK circles, so would be good to hear from people who have experience with his PSGs.

All in all, I appreciate anyone who takes the time to read and respond to this fairly lengthy post, but hey, if I can't bang on about pedel steel guitars on this forum then what is the world coming to?! Cheers! - Dan.

[JohnDavisStringsHere]

G'day Dan, Welcome to the forum, you are doing the right thing asking questions before you jump in, it is a Mine field out there and the research part of it is very important. If you buy a good quality used Pro guitar at a fair price you can expect to get your cash back out of it when it comes time to part as there are lots out there like you and sometimes not enough good guitars to go around.
If you were closer to Cambridge there are three different makes here that you would be welcome to try and learn about the difference but you are a long way north of me and there will be someone more local to you that will help you I am sure. Ted Nesbitt is a good man to deal with and always has a good selection of quality guitars talk to him.

[Danny Mitchell]

Welcome Young Dan, Auld Dan here,
First off, you are the right age to start getting in to this difficult, but rewarding instrument, and I think all the questions you ask are relevant. So, here's my 2 groats worth.
1. I wouldn't go any less than the 10/3/4 setup you quote. Perhaps add another lever(vertical), but when you hear what Lloyd Green gets with that minimum setup, there's no way you could say it's too limiting.
2. There's a third way available here. The Universal Tuning, where you can have a mix of both necks on a 12 string single neck E9/B6. One of the guys at Gartcosh has one of these, an MSA Legend, dream machine. Although, having said that, these are hard to come by. Another young friend of mine bought a second hand Uni which has turned out to be a nightmare, with parts shearing off mid gig!
3. I think, second hand, there might not be too much difference, it really depends on what's available at the time. I kicked off with a Carter Starter (that my Mrs bought, blind on eBay! Eek!) that got me hooked, and I eventually pulled the trigger on a new S10 GFI from Promenade Music in Morecambe, only to be offered a double neck Carter Magnum a week later, for less cash!! Saying that, I'm more than happy with my guitar. It's a single frame and I can't say fatigue has been an issue, but I've no experience of a double frame.
4. There are many quality guitars out there, apart from the 3 you mention. Mullen, MSA, Rains, Justice, Sierra, and more...! And as you say, Bennett in the UK, and Sheffield make truly stunning guitars (as used by Tommy White, no less!)
To sum up; if you can manage a day trip to John Davidson's living room, you'd have the opportunity to sit down to a steel (or three, I think he breeds them) and have the benefit of his experience. If you're going the second hand route, I think you really should try and sit at it before you buy.
Another consideration is amplification, and that's a whole other kettle of fish, because what you're currently using for your 6 string may not be suitable for PSG. So, this may have to be factored in to your costs.
It's great to hear your enthusiasm for this wonderful instrument and I wish you all the best with your steel journey.
Tuition sites worth looking at are, Joe Wright on sierrasteels.com/lessons and Mickey Adams on YouTube. You can also hear a wee bit of my steel here,
Good luck!

[HonkyTonkDan90]

Welcome Young Dan, Auld Dan here

Haha all relative mate! Your mention of Universal Tuning is interesting. Come to think of it I did hear it whispered a few times in my searches, but tended to be drowned out by talk of E9/C6. There's an obvious appeal to that, something for the future perhaps, but think I'd be better learning on one of the seemingly more common setups, probably more tuition material available on E9 too I imagine.

Been in touch with new member Jonathan (vouched for by Ted) regarding the purchase of his Carter D10 8x5 and think I'm going to go for it. He's been very helpful and posted lots of great videos of himself playing it live; I'll be a happy boy if I can one day make it sound that good Might be abit overkill at the moment, but I'm happy about the fact that, with 2 necks, 8 pedals and 5 levers at my disposal, I'm never going to feel limited by my instrument, even if it does take me 10 years to touch the C6!

Another consideration is amplification, and that's a whole other kettle of fish, because what you're currently using for your 6 string may not be suitable for PSG. So, this may have to be factored in to your costs.

Yes indeedy and to honest, I probably haven't given this enough thought. Initially whilst I'm learning, I was intending to plug into my sound interface's Hi-Impedence input and use Guitar Rig's trusty Fender Twin type model. Play around abit until I'm competent enough on PSG to formulate some opinions on what I want from a physical amp. In the market for a new amp for my 6-string anyway, for which I'd go for something in the bluesbreaker kind of vein, Marshall 1974X if I wasn't spending all my money on a PSG! Any conventional wisdom regarding PSG amplification? Sure there's loads out there, but as you said, whole new kettle of fish. Just want to get playing first. I spent the first several years of my guitar playing life tweaking and recording amps, getting some pretty tasty tones whilst remaining totally cr@p at my instrument!

Tuition sites worth looking at are, Joe Wright on sierrasteels.com/lessons and Mickey Adams on YouTube. You can also hear a wee bit of my steel here,
Good luck!

Very nice sir, tastefully done. Yes tuition books are on my immediate shopping list along with a tonebar, finger and thumb picks. Out of interest, any guys out there play purely finger-style? Played mostly claw-hammer for a few years on 6-string before leaning towards hybrid picking. Let's face it, with the internet, we live in a glorious age for teaching oneself to do anything. No shortage of material and willing teachers if you've got the time. Hardest part is not getting disheartened by all the totally amazing players out there! We'd probably never have heard of Eric Clapton if he'd grown up today; he'd have given up soon as he saw young Jimi's youtube channel ! Just be the best you can be and keep trying to get better. Think anyone who sticks with an instrument has figured that out.

[Haddock]

Welcome Dan and I have to say, I like your style! Joined the forum at 8.15pm, first post 9.42 and less than 18 hours later, bought a cracking steel guitar! Good luck with the adventure but I must point out, pedal steel is the ‘crack cocaine’ of instruments and as such, will probably severely damage your wallet. Just one example, I’ve always considered volume pedals to be the cheapest of effects and probably something that comes free with a wah wah. In fact I think my first one a very long time ago also did wind noises and had a police siren! So I just bought a good optical one on eBay and thought ‘that will do fine’! So wrong! Only a matter of time before the addiction kicked in and I ‘had’ to buy a Hilton. WHat a ridiculous price for a volume knob in a box! Massive difference though and I don’t regret it for a second. And as long as no one lists a Telonics for sale no need to ever change it. (Other volume pedals are available)
All the best
Calum

[Danny Mitchell]

Just another wee heads up, relatively young Dan,
The eezzee slide bar that's up for sale is a great buy, if you've any dosh left! Congratulations, btw, that sounds like a beauty.

[Haddock]

The Eeesy slide is a 1” bar and most folk seem to use ⅞” but then again, using the ‘crack’ theory, you’ll end up with forty different ones anyway over time. I recommend ‘Ben’s Bars’ (do a google) as a starter option to save some cash. One of his is the only bar I use now and the ‘crack’ made me spend over £300 on assorted bars that now gather dust!
Cheers
Calum

[Haddock]

Small bit of self doubt crept in about the siren pedal but google has it all! The sad news is that if I still had it, it would be worth nearly £300! And it was crap!

[Danny Mitchell]

Of course, Calum! Ben's Bars are an excellent buy. I've got one in my stash.
I like the 'Crack' analogy, harsh but true.

[hickenjr]

Great to see you join the steel guitar world. We always need more students, especially ones under the age of 30 because there hardly is any.
Looking forward to see you progress and good luck!