Re: Come on Lappers

[Brettus Maximus]

<snip> Just a general question to all those who read this, is it true that a 15 watt valve amp is is louder that a 15 watt solid state?

Sorry (Peter), but the answer is actually no.

Theoretically, in a perfect world, an amp that's been classified as having a specific output would be measured externally to achieve a Sound Output Level in Watts RMS and the manufacturing process designed to replicate it within defined error margins: the RMS sound output of say 5W (this is a LOT, by the way) is a physical property that cannot be (significantly) different from one amp to the other by definition. If one amp is noticeably louder, then something is either mislabelled or faulty.

In the real world, things are MUCH messier. Does the manufacturer mean peak or RMS power, "PMPO" or total power consumption, etc... Have a look here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_powe ... real_world - and if you're not lost, read the rest of the article. Confusing, ain't it!

In short, power ratings on amps are next to meaningless when you're talking purely about loudness, whether valve- or solid-state. Better quality and effieciency in the components (especially the speaker) are what make for louder amps of the same power rating, but that doesn't necessarily mean valves. Go with what works for you when you test it in the shop.

With Valves, they react to harmonics much more than a solid state and are a good choice for lap steel players as we use harmonics a lot to create those beautiful Hawaiian sounds. I don't know exactly HOW they do it but technical people like Basil I am sure will have the answer stored somewhere along the line.

This part of Peters reply, however, is much closer to the truth. Proponents of tube amps will tell you that the valves actually impart a 'musical' harmonic distortion when in use, an effect which becomes noticeable when sufficiently driven or, when it's over-driven, becomes too much and creates distortion at the fundamental. This in itself is still a gross over-simplification and slightly wrong - the physics involved are complex, almost to the point of intractibility.
This clumsy question on another forum generates a host of excellent replies (as well as some snipe and sarcasm).
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=118684
Hope you can plow through all this and you find it interesting.

Oh, and PS: I use a "50W" Fender tube amp, because I think it sounds lovely.

[coolsteel]

Brettus,

When I came to the last line of your posting it all became clear, now why did I not think of that in the first instance.

[Brettus Maximus]

<snip>
Any way what lap steel do you play and which tunings do you mostly use?

Hi Peter! I do hope you don't feel chastised - that's certainly not my intention.
I just like to think where possible I can help dismantle a few false preconceptions, that's all.

Here's my own interpretation of why, as you correctly say, valve amps are considered louder than their sold-state companions.
It's all down to the quality of components issue. People looking for cheap amps will have to go for the transistor amp: even if they're only looking at a 5W amp it'll still be rather pricey if it's a tube one. Cheap amps will have less efficient speakers and a lower quality of materials used in the cabinet build. The tube amp buyer is expecting to pay more already and the amp builder knows this. Typically, these amps have better quality speakers and cabinets too, making the cost even higher but improving the overall efficiency of the system - this efficiency is what makes for a bigger SPL output.
Put simply, I put 15W into amp #1 and lose 25% of that power in the conversion through transistors, cheap cab and cheap speakers.
I put 15W into amp #2 and lose 15% of that power in the conversion through expensive tubes, well built cab and quality speakers. (values are not accurate, btw)
In reality, the tubes are actually much less efficient than their transistor equivalents: it's almost entirely the speaker which makes up for that difference and more.
As you can see, if I bought a well constructed tranny amp with top quality components all through, I should expect it to be at least as loud as any valve amp of the same rating. These types of amps have largely gone out of favour over the last 10+ years, partly because of customer demand but maybe also because the makers know they can charge more by putting a tube or two in there. You do still see them around though, and you still have to pay a massive premium for them. Think 80s metal and a big Marshall stack.

Moving into the realms of supposition now, I wonder if there is a higher tolerance of the sound produced by tube amps because of the harmonic distortion.
What I mean is, perhaps tranny amps simply don't get turned up as loud as tube amps because we find them harsher at lower volume levels.
It's an interesting thought, but I certainly don't have any evidence to back it up. I learnt all the info about power consumption and efficiency from a very experienced electronics engineer. I must try to remember to ask him about this last bit next time I see him!

To more important things:-
Thanks for your interest. I'm actually just starting up as a player. I inherited an Artisan 20 1/5inch scale lap steel and started playing it a few months ago, for a performance celebrating a friends 40th birthday. Did the gig, played nearly an hour on it and was mighty pleased with the reception - nobody at the party had ever seen a lap before and I got lots of interest and compliments on my playing.
Put it away for a couple of months since as I've been busy but, by coincidence, picked it up yesterday for the first time since June for a quick recording session that's going on a forthcoming album. Got 5 successful takes down and the customer is already thrilled with the result - huzzah!
I'm now looking around for more cheap laps to open up other tunings (use C6 currently) and also should be getting an Anderwood acoustic by Christmas - very excited about that!

Some last questions for you - where do you source the parts from for your home builds? How long have they taken on average? Do you have a rough cost for finished projects?
Thanks,
Brett.

[Brettus Maximus]

That's a wonderful mine of information there, Peter. I couldn't have imagined you'd go into so much detail - thanks very much, it certainly makes the prospect of making one of my very own much less daunting!

To answer your question, I used a 70s vintage Fender Vibrochamp back in 2008 recording the last album I worked on.
It was and remains the second-best amp I've ever played through (you should bear in mind I was playing standard 6-string guitar in a band with rock/pop/punk/prog leanings at the time).

The best amp I ever used was one of these:-
http://www.vintageandrare.com/product/S ... Skin-20700
One thing I'll never know is why people can't make amps as good as that any more - it's nearly 50 years old for goodness sake!

Good luck with the Campion - although I doubt you'll need it

[Ruby Darnell]

I used a Fender Blues Junior valve amp for ages and it was great although not quite loud enough for what I needed onstage. Although I had it mic-ed up and was loud enough out front, once the rest of the band got going it wasnt loud for me as a monitor onstage even cranked up. Anyhow, it started smoking one night and there was a burning smell. When we got it home and took the back off, there was a big charred bit. We had a chat with a bloke who lives locally (John Godsland, Orchid Electronics) and he said that often the bits on these amps aren't particularly high quality and in this case the output transformer was to blame. So we looked for a new one, found a very expensive one at Mercury Magnetics but then also found a chap on ebay making some himself MUCH cheaper about £18. I think it's a model of the one used in the Marshall Bluesbreaker combo or the Vox AC15. We got one off him, we put it in the amp and not only did it fix the problem but it is a great deal louder now. It's turned a good amp into a monster amp. While the Blues Junior was kaput I bought a Fender Frontman to gig with, a transistor amp. So not as warm a sound but good and fine for me. The BJ is great now for smaller venues and is plenty loud.
There was lots of info on you tube about fitting the output transformer including lots of useful info about how to avoid electrocuting yourself!

[Sheepdog]

Peter,
Yeah liking all those pickups, how does the 'blade' sound. Been thinking of making one for next project.
I know it's not lapsteel but check out this video of my two latest pickups on an old slide guitar.



Still have not found 'the' pickup type I will use on my next lapsteel.

Cheers
Ray.

[Sheepdog]

Hi Peter,
I really have been quiet, did'nt realise it was so long. I ve been really busy with lots of stuff, including promoting the bands cd, which seems to eat time!
I have got two new builds ready for polishing and assembling and will put up a couple of vids when they are finished..
Looking forward to yours.
Cheers
Ray

[lernerlap]

Started out with an own made lap steel guitar then got a chinese one,basically a plank with added bits but works very nicely,then,got a three quaters size classical guitar,lifted the nut and bridge so that i now have a acoustic one as well.Nothing very expensive,but it all works,I don't do gigs with them and I don't know anybody else who plays,I also put steel strings on the classical guitar.Started with E tuning ,tried G tuning,C6 tuning and the rest,but I have settled for the E tuning.I like the octave on the first four strings the fifth on the fifth string and the root on the sixth string,works for me.I played banjo in a jazz band for a long time so Ihave a good idea how it all works,trouble is the tunes I know all come from the dance band era so don't know much country music but learning slowly.Anyway,keep smiling and sliding you all . Duncan

[Gretschnut]

Hi Pete, just to show that I do read the content even though I may not post any inputs. I am basically a psg newbie working away from home, so I find the lap easier to take with me for practice in the hotel of an evening. As you would expect, I have a Gretsch. I persevere with C6th tuning but am limited by ability. However, I will try what you suggest. Cheers for now, H.

[Basil Henriques]

Still have not found 'the' pickup type I will use on my next lapsteel.
Cheers
Ray.

Ray, what kind of sound do you want, maybe I can help. After all I've been in pick-up design since 1965..

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