Harmonising
Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:35 pm
HELP
Well I've dug myself into a bit of a hole trying to put harmony to old sheet music melody. I have all the dots for the melody and the keys, but I'm making a mess of putting harmony notes to the melody, I get the chords OK well sort of but I can't get the harmony to sound right, especially where I get minor chords cropping up. Should I just play single notes or is there another way to get to harmonise.
I'm not high on theory so straight english would be better for me.
I have tried putting higher notes to the melody, which didn't sound correct, then I added lower notes to the same notes but the lower note was to my ears overpowering the melody line.
WineRider
3 planks no brains but willing to try!
Well I've dug myself into a bit of a hole trying to put harmony to old sheet music melody. I have all the dots for the melody and the keys, but I'm making a mess of putting harmony notes to the melody, I get the chords OK well sort of but I can't get the harmony to sound right, especially where I get minor chords cropping up. Should I just play single notes or is there another way to get to harmonise.
I'm not high on theory so straight english would be better for me.
I have tried putting higher notes to the melody, which didn't sound correct, then I added lower notes to the same notes but the lower note was to my ears overpowering the melody line.
WineRider
3 planks no brains but willing to try!
Re: Harmonising
Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:08 am
Hi Maurice
Well all that I can say is what works for me personally. I think that a harmony note below the melody usually sounds best, but sometimes a higher harmony sounds good. It depends upon the actual melody, where it meanders and how much a harmony note interferes with the melody line. On an E9 pedal steel, string 5 for the melody along with string 8 for the harmony often works. Years ago when I played lap steel I used an E13 tuning, and would play the melody on the top E string and a harmony note on a lower string. There is no hard and fast rule for harmony notes, you will know if it sounds rights straightaway. Just remember that you are playing to a chord structure, and that your thirds and fifths have to be flattened and sharpened accordingly.
Re your lower strings overpowering the higher ones - this is because you are picking harder on the bottom harmony. Just practise is required.
Well all that I can say is what works for me personally. I think that a harmony note below the melody usually sounds best, but sometimes a higher harmony sounds good. It depends upon the actual melody, where it meanders and how much a harmony note interferes with the melody line. On an E9 pedal steel, string 5 for the melody along with string 8 for the harmony often works. Years ago when I played lap steel I used an E13 tuning, and would play the melody on the top E string and a harmony note on a lower string. There is no hard and fast rule for harmony notes, you will know if it sounds rights straightaway. Just remember that you are playing to a chord structure, and that your thirds and fifths have to be flattened and sharpened accordingly.
Re your lower strings overpowering the higher ones - this is because you are picking harder on the bottom harmony. Just practise is required.
Re: Harmonising
Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:40 pm
Hi Ken,
That has helped me a lot...I am using a different thumb pick with less of a blade and also lighter. No surprise you were right I was using to much pressure with my thumb, old habits die hard.
The main reason in using a lot of my old sheet music is that the number of tabs I have for both A6th and C6th are so plentiful and I wanted to try something original and not like others. Big ideas, with small ability makes it interesting to say the least.
Maurice
That has helped me a lot...I am using a different thumb pick with less of a blade and also lighter. No surprise you were right I was using to much pressure with my thumb, old habits die hard.
The main reason in using a lot of my old sheet music is that the number of tabs I have for both A6th and C6th are so plentiful and I wanted to try something original and not like others. Big ideas, with small ability makes it interesting to say the least.
Maurice
Re: Harmonising
Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:01 pm
I've realised as I begin upon my jazz goals that the fifth note in the chord is NOT important. You need to focus on the root, 3rd, 7th are the most important. In fact in most jazz playing the 5th simply muddies up the chord. It is usually unimportant. And leads nowhere.
Also great tip is. When there is a major/minor/dominant/ or dim chord do a 7th of it. Great trick. And then know when to include the 9th or 13th
Also great tip is. When there is a major/minor/dominant/ or dim chord do a 7th of it. Great trick. And then know when to include the 9th or 13th
Re: Harmonising
Sat Apr 18, 2015 6:04 pm
Also challenge yourself to learn notes. As that is the language of music. It takes time but I am realising it makes a HUGE difference. The fret/string number system is limiting and will not open up your playing like knowing what note you need.
Re: Harmonising
Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:07 am
Stefan,
I do read dots and have done since I was 9 years old, but it doesn't help me trying to harmonise the melody line of my sheet music, Jazz chords are not the be all and end all in musicallity..my guitar teacher when I was 14 was a highly rated jazz musician called Ted Palmer (ex Squadronairs) told me to play chords which suited my playing, the tune and also the mood I was in. Still doesn't help to play properly with correct use of thumb or fingers. Theory doesn't make the player feel the piece he's playing or the charcter of the piece. Many pickers on this site are not at all clued up on any theory, but give them a tune, a riff or even a chord progression and they can play with the best of them and also back singers with the all important 'Less is better'.
Maurice
I do read dots and have done since I was 9 years old, but it doesn't help me trying to harmonise the melody line of my sheet music, Jazz chords are not the be all and end all in musicallity..my guitar teacher when I was 14 was a highly rated jazz musician called Ted Palmer (ex Squadronairs) told me to play chords which suited my playing, the tune and also the mood I was in. Still doesn't help to play properly with correct use of thumb or fingers. Theory doesn't make the player feel the piece he's playing or the charcter of the piece. Many pickers on this site are not at all clued up on any theory, but give them a tune, a riff or even a chord progression and they can play with the best of them and also back singers with the all important 'Less is better'.
Maurice
Re: Harmonising
Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:36 pm
So you finished the lap steel you were showing on the Builders' Forum? When can we hear it?
I've been struggling to learn to harmonise too. I don't think it would ever be wrong to play the note itself and another, two scale degrees above it. So the gap between them would be three or four semitones. If you are playing in C, and the note called for is E, the harmony note would be G.
This is the basis of the "harmonised scale" we learn when we play pedal steel. Sometimes of course we want a different note for the harmony - you need a good ear to try to hear what is different about the effect you are looking to create. I think Stefan is right, we need to think in terms of notes. But the number of times we need a more exotic note like a 7th, 9th, 13th etc, is relatively infrequent for most songs. For me, the most important "stranger" is the 6th note of the minor scale. The minor 6th creates some beautiful tensions, and I suspect this is what you might be looking for.
I've been struggling to learn to harmonise too. I don't think it would ever be wrong to play the note itself and another, two scale degrees above it. So the gap between them would be three or four semitones. If you are playing in C, and the note called for is E, the harmony note would be G.
This is the basis of the "harmonised scale" we learn when we play pedal steel. Sometimes of course we want a different note for the harmony - you need a good ear to try to hear what is different about the effect you are looking to create. I think Stefan is right, we need to think in terms of notes. But the number of times we need a more exotic note like a 7th, 9th, 13th etc, is relatively infrequent for most songs. For me, the most important "stranger" is the 6th note of the minor scale. The minor 6th creates some beautiful tensions, and I suspect this is what you might be looking for.
Re: Harmonising
Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:43 pm
One man's 6th is another man's 13th.
Re: Harmonising
Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:09 pm
Hi Will,
Have a little patience with me...hearing me play now would possibly put your hearing in danger. Ken's advice was more than useful, because I have been playing too strong with my thumb and not strong enough with my fingers. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds harmonising a problem, but playing with feet and knees is far beyond me. I have been playing most of the right notes with my harmonising it was my picking that was the main problem, so now I'm right back to basics trying to get the balance right in my picking...always easier said than done, but I now know that there is a noted picker about 1.5 hours away in the Vendée, I've got his number so when I can get hold of him, I'm going to have a chat, a watch and hopefully he can get some order to my picking.
Making lap steel 'Plank' is easier than playing, the three sound nice when they are played by someone other than me, so I do have a sound to try for.
Maurice
Have a little patience with me...hearing me play now would possibly put your hearing in danger. Ken's advice was more than useful, because I have been playing too strong with my thumb and not strong enough with my fingers. I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds harmonising a problem, but playing with feet and knees is far beyond me. I have been playing most of the right notes with my harmonising it was my picking that was the main problem, so now I'm right back to basics trying to get the balance right in my picking...always easier said than done, but I now know that there is a noted picker about 1.5 hours away in the Vendée, I've got his number so when I can get hold of him, I'm going to have a chat, a watch and hopefully he can get some order to my picking.
Making lap steel 'Plank' is easier than playing, the three sound nice when they are played by someone other than me, so I do have a sound to try for.
Maurice
Re: Harmonising
Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:33 pm
Hi Maurice
I play a number of instruments - guitar, saxophone, flute, ukulele, banjo etc. Steel guitar is by far and away the most difficult I have ever attempted and has taken by far the most effort to get to a level where I wouldn't be embarrassed to be heard in public, so I wouldn't feel disheartened. Perseverance is key.
Concerning harmonisation, if you are using A6/C6 tunings you can get a lot of mileage out of 3rds and 6ths. In the straight bar position you will find these mostly around root position and +5 and +7 frets - so for thirds it would be strings 1&2, 2&3 etc. but not the middle two, for sixths it would be strings 1&4, 2&5 etc.
Over the dominant chord you can play the minor chords beween root and two frets down from root. Of course it takes a little practice to get it sounding good, but have a go playing along to some Hank Williams or the like.
cheers, Andrew
I play a number of instruments - guitar, saxophone, flute, ukulele, banjo etc. Steel guitar is by far and away the most difficult I have ever attempted and has taken by far the most effort to get to a level where I wouldn't be embarrassed to be heard in public, so I wouldn't feel disheartened. Perseverance is key.
Concerning harmonisation, if you are using A6/C6 tunings you can get a lot of mileage out of 3rds and 6ths. In the straight bar position you will find these mostly around root position and +5 and +7 frets - so for thirds it would be strings 1&2, 2&3 etc. but not the middle two, for sixths it would be strings 1&4, 2&5 etc.
Over the dominant chord you can play the minor chords beween root and two frets down from root. Of course it takes a little practice to get it sounding good, but have a go playing along to some Hank Williams or the like.
cheers, Andrew