Project
Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:50 pm
My original intention was to make a Lap Steel from scratch as I'm retired (73) and have plenty of time and skills, but I was recently lucky enough to purchase a Gibson BR4 body and original case on eBay and I am in the process of getting it back to playing condition. Because of it's age I was sceptical of being able to get original parts, tuners, pickup, scratchplate etc without searching the US websites and paying ridiculous prices, plus UK import taxes, so I decided to give it a modern "deco" look. Incidentally, it came with the original fingerboard which is in "reasonable" condition considering it's age and will be kept safe and sound, maybe for a future project?.
My daughter lives in New Zealand and I'm thinking of sourcing some Weru or Ancient Kauri next time I visit. Both woods are used by indigenous luthiers.
I contacted Bruce Wei on eBay and purchased a fantastic MOP/Abalone inlaid fingerboard which blew me away with the workmanship. It cost me £37.50 including shipping!
The original finish of the guitar had been scraped off and apart from a few minor dings it is in good condition. I rubbed it down using 150, 220 and 350 grade sandpaper, then finished it with medium and fine wire wool. My brother is a retired painter and decorator, also practised in French Polishing, and he stained it for me. I decided not to varnish the wood and finished it with natural beeswax polish, a decision that was correct. At present the headstock is a light colour, possibly a Pine cap, and I may stain it mid-brown. Bruce Wei has also supplied a MOP Gibson logo for the head.
I've since fitted the fingerboard along with tuners and an adjustable bridge, also a nut which I fabricated from 12mm Aluminium angle (from B&Q!). I'm now waiting for some faux tortoiseshell to make a pick-guard which will be similarly shaped to the original BR4. I intend to fit a cream humbucker and surround which should look and sound awesome.
I tried to attach some pics of the project so far but the files were too large, suggestions anybody? Maybe also a sound clip later, but I am a new "Steelie" and it may be a bit "amateur".
My daughter lives in New Zealand and I'm thinking of sourcing some Weru or Ancient Kauri next time I visit. Both woods are used by indigenous luthiers.
I contacted Bruce Wei on eBay and purchased a fantastic MOP/Abalone inlaid fingerboard which blew me away with the workmanship. It cost me £37.50 including shipping!
The original finish of the guitar had been scraped off and apart from a few minor dings it is in good condition. I rubbed it down using 150, 220 and 350 grade sandpaper, then finished it with medium and fine wire wool. My brother is a retired painter and decorator, also practised in French Polishing, and he stained it for me. I decided not to varnish the wood and finished it with natural beeswax polish, a decision that was correct. At present the headstock is a light colour, possibly a Pine cap, and I may stain it mid-brown. Bruce Wei has also supplied a MOP Gibson logo for the head.
I've since fitted the fingerboard along with tuners and an adjustable bridge, also a nut which I fabricated from 12mm Aluminium angle (from B&Q!). I'm now waiting for some faux tortoiseshell to make a pick-guard which will be similarly shaped to the original BR4. I intend to fit a cream humbucker and surround which should look and sound awesome.
I tried to attach some pics of the project so far but the files were too large, suggestions anybody? Maybe also a sound clip later, but I am a new "Steelie" and it may be a bit "amateur".
Re: Project
Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:16 am
Picture above is of a Gibson BR4 bridge.
Best wishes, Tony.
Re: Project
Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:17 am
Tony can you please clarify you're point about adjustable bridge saddles please. I use an Ibanez bridge on my lap steel and use the adjustable saddles to get tone at nut and 12th fret. After that they are fixed in position: are you saying this is wrong, or were you talking about Strat. style saddles that are both height and tone adjustable?
Winerider
Winerider
Re: Project
Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:07 pm
Hi Tony,
Thanks or your comments regarding the adjustable bridge. It is indeed a Strat Style bridge and as Winerider says, I will use it to get intonation at the 12th fret and I understand your point about height adjustment being a "one-off" thing. I could fabricate a solid piece of Brass/Steel to fit under the saddles once I have the final setting. I am a retired engineer and I'm handy at "making bits fit together". I have an old "bitsa-Strat? thing set up for C6th playing, which fired me up to go for a proper lap Steel and don't have any problems with the sound. I own a Tele ('98) and an Aria Pro TS500 ('83), both with thru' body stringing and prefer this method for real sustain (maybe it's just my tinnitus?), but I'm not prepared to drill thru' this beautiful old piece of mahogany! Hell it's probably as old, or older than I am (73).
I've looked at some American players on YouTube and quite a few of their "flat packs" have adjustable bridges, and surely the quality of your pickup and amp makes a huge difference too? Incidentally I have a Fender Princeton 112 amp and also use a Roland Cube 20w as I only play in the house and don't want anything very loud. My brother, a jazz style guitarist, has Polytone and Gibson valve amps which I can "borrow" anytime I wish, but I prefer the brightness of solid state gear. I also have a Zoom 707 pedal which has numerous usable sounds, including stereo output when you use a "Y" output cable. Think real chorus and flanging.
*** Still haven't figured out how to upload a picture to the site, I use an iPad for pictures and it tells me the file size is too big when I try to upload an attachment. *** !!!
Thanks or your comments regarding the adjustable bridge. It is indeed a Strat Style bridge and as Winerider says, I will use it to get intonation at the 12th fret and I understand your point about height adjustment being a "one-off" thing. I could fabricate a solid piece of Brass/Steel to fit under the saddles once I have the final setting. I am a retired engineer and I'm handy at "making bits fit together". I have an old "bitsa-Strat? thing set up for C6th playing, which fired me up to go for a proper lap Steel and don't have any problems with the sound. I own a Tele ('98) and an Aria Pro TS500 ('83), both with thru' body stringing and prefer this method for real sustain (maybe it's just my tinnitus?), but I'm not prepared to drill thru' this beautiful old piece of mahogany! Hell it's probably as old, or older than I am (73).
I've looked at some American players on YouTube and quite a few of their "flat packs" have adjustable bridges, and surely the quality of your pickup and amp makes a huge difference too? Incidentally I have a Fender Princeton 112 amp and also use a Roland Cube 20w as I only play in the house and don't want anything very loud. My brother, a jazz style guitarist, has Polytone and Gibson valve amps which I can "borrow" anytime I wish, but I prefer the brightness of solid state gear. I also have a Zoom 707 pedal which has numerous usable sounds, including stereo output when you use a "Y" output cable. Think real chorus and flanging.
*** Still haven't figured out how to upload a picture to the site, I use an iPad for pictures and it tells me the file size is too big when I try to upload an attachment. *** !!!
Re: Project
Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:21 pm
Me again,
I've managed to upload a picture of the project to date. It's not finished, but getting there. I'm thinking the headstock should be black, as per original, which will make the MOP Gibson logo stand out.
Regards,
Keith.
I've managed to upload a picture of the project to date. It's not finished, but getting there. I'm thinking the headstock should be black, as per original, which will make the MOP Gibson logo stand out.
Regards,
Keith.
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Re: Project
Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:17 pm
Just wiped a whole reply - start again 
Yes Maurice, it's the 6 saddles, adjustable for height and intonation that I mean - typically on a strat. The theory goes that a solid bridge (I've successfully used angle aluminium), screwed down well, will transfer string vibrations to the body better than anything with movable parts and/or small surface area in contact.
As to intonation; for sure, a solid bridge has to be fixed in the right place viz-a-viz the fretboard. But if that is correct, the fretboard accurate and the strings sounding an in-tune chord at the nut, then a straight bar anywhere up the fretboard should sound the same in-tune intervals. Any variance introduced by string gauge should be less than that caused by bar pressure.
Regards, Tony.
(Explanation - read at your own risk)
The steel guitar is not a "just temperament" instrument. You can play a G# and make it sound different to an Ab. In terms of true pitch, G# is actually a higher note than Ab and many folk instruments reflect this (that's why, for instance, Scottish bagpipes sound right playing a pentatonic scale in A, but some notes can sound way off in other keys as their notes are all based on the intervals of a true A scale). A lot of "standard" instruments, piano for example, only have the ability to sound one note to cover both of these tones. So they are tuned to a compromise, i.e. midway between, throughout the range (that's just temperament). Those strat style bridges "compensate" to allow two or more notes, when fingered at different frets, to sound in-tune; like the midway tuning on a piano.
Steel guitar, violin, most bagpipes etc. are tuned to unjust temperament - tuned to sound right in the natural (open strings) key of the instrument and no compromise is made. A C6th tuning is based on the open-string notes being bang on the intervals of a scale in C - nothing else. The advantage is that once you bar at the various positions up the fretboard, you have perfectly in-tune chords at every place else too, because you are doing the same thing as if re-tuning the "open" strings. That's why, mainly seen in pedal steel circles, you get tuning charts where you have different Hz numbers for each string and not 440 all the way. E.G. on E9th you tune the Es and Bs to 440 (they are a perfect 5th apart and fit with each other) but G#s, D etc. are tuned slightly flat to fit the "E based "unjust" scale.
Here's one I made earlier - the pickup is from a Jazz bass (rewound) and the "bridge" is covered by a cut-down Jazz-Bass pickup cover as a hand rest.
Yes Maurice, it's the 6 saddles, adjustable for height and intonation that I mean - typically on a strat. The theory goes that a solid bridge (I've successfully used angle aluminium), screwed down well, will transfer string vibrations to the body better than anything with movable parts and/or small surface area in contact.
As to intonation; for sure, a solid bridge has to be fixed in the right place viz-a-viz the fretboard. But if that is correct, the fretboard accurate and the strings sounding an in-tune chord at the nut, then a straight bar anywhere up the fretboard should sound the same in-tune intervals. Any variance introduced by string gauge should be less than that caused by bar pressure.
Regards, Tony.
(Explanation - read at your own risk)
The steel guitar is not a "just temperament" instrument. You can play a G# and make it sound different to an Ab. In terms of true pitch, G# is actually a higher note than Ab and many folk instruments reflect this (that's why, for instance, Scottish bagpipes sound right playing a pentatonic scale in A, but some notes can sound way off in other keys as their notes are all based on the intervals of a true A scale). A lot of "standard" instruments, piano for example, only have the ability to sound one note to cover both of these tones. So they are tuned to a compromise, i.e. midway between, throughout the range (that's just temperament). Those strat style bridges "compensate" to allow two or more notes, when fingered at different frets, to sound in-tune; like the midway tuning on a piano.
Steel guitar, violin, most bagpipes etc. are tuned to unjust temperament - tuned to sound right in the natural (open strings) key of the instrument and no compromise is made. A C6th tuning is based on the open-string notes being bang on the intervals of a scale in C - nothing else. The advantage is that once you bar at the various positions up the fretboard, you have perfectly in-tune chords at every place else too, because you are doing the same thing as if re-tuning the "open" strings. That's why, mainly seen in pedal steel circles, you get tuning charts where you have different Hz numbers for each string and not 440 all the way. E.G. on E9th you tune the Es and Bs to 440 (they are a perfect 5th apart and fit with each other) but G#s, D etc. are tuned slightly flat to fit the "E based "unjust" scale.
Here's one I made earlier - the pickup is from a Jazz bass (rewound) and the "bridge" is covered by a cut-down Jazz-Bass pickup cover as a hand rest.
Re: Project
Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:48 pm
Hi Tony,
Keith again, I appreciate all of your comments regarding tuning, intonation etc. I also play a bit of Gypsy Jazz rhythm guitar and after I have tuned my Manouche 'D' hole guitar to the open strings EADGBE, I then play something like a full 6th/9th chord in the mid-neck position and retune to a digital tuner where necessary. This which hardly effects the open string tuning, but does correct notes at the "dusty end". This proves that string gauge does effect the tuning with a fixed string length. I'm not disputing your experience, but despite having tinnitus, I can hear when a note is "desafinado", (slightly out of tune).
Here's another pic with a cardboard template for my pickguard, pickup/control mounting. I'm already modding it in my mind. I work by the "design on the fly" method as taught by an old colleague of mine who contributed to the design of the "magnetron" valve used in the first aircraft radar systems.
Keep the comments coming, I thrive on discussion.
Keith
Keith again, I appreciate all of your comments regarding tuning, intonation etc. I also play a bit of Gypsy Jazz rhythm guitar and after I have tuned my Manouche 'D' hole guitar to the open strings EADGBE, I then play something like a full 6th/9th chord in the mid-neck position and retune to a digital tuner where necessary. This which hardly effects the open string tuning, but does correct notes at the "dusty end". This proves that string gauge does effect the tuning with a fixed string length. I'm not disputing your experience, but despite having tinnitus, I can hear when a note is "desafinado", (slightly out of tune).
Here's another pic with a cardboard template for my pickguard, pickup/control mounting. I'm already modding it in my mind. I work by the "design on the fly" method as taught by an old colleague of mine who contributed to the design of the "magnetron" valve used in the first aircraft radar systems.
Keep the comments coming, I thrive on discussion.
Keith
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Re: Project
Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:26 pm
Hi Tony,
Thanks for the clarification, now just to add another dimension into the tuning thing.
440 Hz is a recent phenomenon the original was 432 Hz which is 'that what I use' and although there is very little difference at 432 my creation sounds sweeter than at 440. Now history is supposed to show us that 216 half of 432 is the naturally occurring number that covers nearly all the angles of growing plants, trees, and I think range of sound for good hearing. But as years of racing motorbikes for a living I can safely say my hearing is shot, but it still lets me hear a clear note or chord (played by someone else not me). Now who else in this lap steel world uses 432? Just try it and see the difference!!
Winerider
Thanks for the clarification, now just to add another dimension into the tuning thing.
440 Hz is a recent phenomenon the original was 432 Hz which is 'that what I use' and although there is very little difference at 432 my creation sounds sweeter than at 440. Now history is supposed to show us that 216 half of 432 is the naturally occurring number that covers nearly all the angles of growing plants, trees, and I think range of sound for good hearing. But as years of racing motorbikes for a living I can safely say my hearing is shot, but it still lets me hear a clear note or chord (played by someone else not me). Now who else in this lap steel world uses 432? Just try it and see the difference!!
Winerider
Re: Project
Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:36 am
Hi Keith viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2257&start=0 If you read down this thread you will see Bazil's comments. I understand your experiences with standard guitar and it actually supports what I said about just temperament instruments (piano, fixed fret guitar etc). Thus the lack of compensation will affect your guitar with fixed frets, but it doesn't apply to steel guitar where the fret markers are guides only, you compensate with the bar (automatically, or by ear, without thinking if you like).
Honest! It really is different, it's tuned by reference to the "home" key of your tuning in perfect intervals (e.g. use an E7th and you tune from an "E"; or C6th from a "C" etc) and that works for the same intervals all the way up the fretboard.
Honest! It really is different, it's tuned by reference to the "home" key of your tuning in perfect intervals (e.g. use an E7th and you tune from an "E"; or C6th from a "C" etc) and that works for the same intervals all the way up the fretboard.
Re: Project
Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:37 am
Hi
Read with interest your latest project. I am certainly looking at the prospect of getting some parts from George Boards and doing a build.
I must agree with one point that has already been made and that is of the bridge. A solid bridge especially from steel bar will give more sustain. I have a Gretsch Country Classic guitar which has a solid non adjustable bridge. Sound was nice but I wondered what improvement would be with a Gibson style tune-a-matic bridge so replaced it. That didn't stay on long. Sustain reduced so I put the original back.
It would be a shame to take your bridge off and fill screw holes etc. so stick with it. Maybe on your next project you can give thought to this. Would be glad to see the results when you have finished it though. Looks good already - well done.
Read with interest your latest project. I am certainly looking at the prospect of getting some parts from George Boards and doing a build.
I must agree with one point that has already been made and that is of the bridge. A solid bridge especially from steel bar will give more sustain. I have a Gretsch Country Classic guitar which has a solid non adjustable bridge. Sound was nice but I wondered what improvement would be with a Gibson style tune-a-matic bridge so replaced it. That didn't stay on long. Sustain reduced so I put the original back.
It would be a shame to take your bridge off and fill screw holes etc. so stick with it. Maybe on your next project you can give thought to this. Would be glad to see the results when you have finished it though. Looks good already - well done.