Bill laurence original pickups

[Malcolm]

They stopped doing carbon, because it was way to good for the average steel player, way out of their price range, just made for us "Special Ones'" . Jose McMaster

[Ivor Greenwood]

Ok Guys... After all the tone ideas have been interrogated...Where next...Well first thing to remember is that a steel guitar, is a mechanical instrument.......The wooden body is just for holding the end plates together... a lacquer body looks superb. Especially when craftsmen like Mark Giles , get turned loose on the finish....There has been experiments with wooden necks...metal necks and even no necks.....outcome .... no difference ..guitar still sounded the same....
My long conversation with Paul Franklin senior in Dallas, on this subject got me thinking....He was of the opinion that the...End Plates...the rods under the body...pedal rods... pedal bar.. all contributed to the resonance of the strings...he even suggested that a guitar made with everything fitting perfectly was not such a good thing....Better to have them all a little loose and make it all resonate...Is that perhaps why a Push Pull Emmons has that
wonderful sound, especially on the top end...A little trick Paul suggested to try. When looking at a guitar, you might like ...run your fingers over the strings and immediately put you hand down and feel the pedal bar lightly ...You should be able to feel some vibration...if not, then that guitar will have a dead sound .. I think the late Gene Fields was on the right track with his GFI.......A bright sound from the mechanical frame work......Maybe not to everyone's taste......After my conversation with Mr Franklin....I had the same conversation with Mark Giles...I suggested an idea I had of trying a maple body with perhaps four aluminium rods counter sunk into the underside of the body and fixed to the end plates....Mark was very interested in the idea and said he had never heard of that approach before....Unfortunately for me I have lost a great contact I had in the formula one world...If I still had access to the guy five axis CNC machine...I would have him machine a complete body out of an aluminium billet....I could then experiment with various methods of reducing the resonance....and try to control the tone in that fashion....The cost of the billet and machining would be a bit crazy....But then if you want the best like an MSA... And you have money to burn like Mr Byng...Cost doesn't matter........Remember this Thread has not to be taken seriously...just a bit of rambling from an old fool who doesn't know what he is talking about ...Better than reading the daily papers I suppose...They all have the same stories anyway.... Only on different pages..........Post all replies and big ideas soon....We need to get this project underway....Mr Byng will surely provide the funds...With 15 guitars in the house ...he's a victim for anything

[Ken Byng]

Wrong Ivor - it's 21 guitars!!

[Malcolm]

Ivor, your idea of rods built into body connected to end plates sounds interesting, not sure if that would help with cabinet drop by strengthening body,for those who obsess about it but most of us don't even notice, or cause tuning unstabilty with expansion /contraction of metal as a side effect.Having more metal for vibration to pass through could well have a major effect on tone,a down side would be adding weight.Some of the MCI guitars built by Bud Carter,had welded metal frames on underside, and although I know very little about this personally, believe they are a much sought after guitar , as it is stated it brings them very near the so called p/p sound.Sierra guitars had a similar type of set up I believe, also I understand body panels were metal, so there does seem to be some credibility for Ivor's suggestion.One other thing that puzzles me is the design of the new Rittenberry, with features such as round cross shafts, which makes me think why would anyone go back to this with all the problems of bell cranks slipping? Do round shafts resonate better than the square ones, if so why?
I don't know if a one piece metal body would be answer, but if it hasn't been tried then who knows, and might be worth trying.I can see downside could possibly be a weight issue, the reason I sold my Mullen and went for the best quality light weight guitar I could find, as back problems meant horrendous pain every time I had to move it around and set it up.
I know Uncle Ken and I have our little battle over body material, but no one can doubt the quality and standard of engineering on MSA guitars, (as Ivor said these guys build high end aviation parts, on my factory visit I could not believe the standard of work which went into guitars) , which I personally believe to be the highest standard in the Steel guitar industry, does that extra refinement make a substantial difference - who knows?
At the end of the day does the average punter notice -- NO , most don't even know what a steel guitar is, let alone the difference in tone between a good one or bad one or any particular make, it is just players who do, and I believe a lot of that is misguided and comes from a certain amount of snobbish beliefs and myths built up over the years-- that should stir up quite a few of you. if a guitar sounds good it doesn't matter what make it is, I still believe a great deal of tone is in the hands of who is playing it.

[Malcolm]

Should have added, can think of no one better than Ivor to try these ideas, his engineering capabilities are second to none,as well as being a great guy .

[Ken Byng]

Well Mr M, with regard to round cross shafts, my Show Pro and my Emmons push pull as well as my Sho~Bud all have round cross shafts with zero puller slippage. All are tone machines, and the Ritt joins that band in the tone department. I don't think that either round or square cross shafts are the best option, as modern round pullers can fix straight onto the cross shaft just like the square ones. Clem Schmitz has designed a brilliant puller for 'Buds that clips straight onto the round cross shaft.

I think that a polished aluminium angle section mounted underneath the pedal stops assists greatly in reducing cabinet flex, and most modern pedal steels have this angle section screwed in place. Certainly my Show Pro does.

There is a thread on the US steel forum on the new deluxe Rittenberry Prestige that outlines all of the areas where they have made improvements to tone and playability. It makes interesting reading.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... ittenberry

[Malcolm]

Mr BING, ( and Spence) , Ivor said he can accept, paypal, bankers orders or just plain cash to fund his project, so if you can get it to him ASAP he would be much obliged.
Ken I had several times on my old ShoBud when I had slippage on cross shafts no matter how much they were tightened, hence my preference for square shafts.Unless someone knows of a very good reason for round shafts, I can see no advantage in using them over square ones, even with the newer type bell cranks.
One thing I often wonder about is the use of plastic (Drelin?)bushing on cross shafts, it certainly smooths and quietens things down , but is that at expense of vibration/resonance , would brass bushing or some sort of bushing or bearings be better? Anyone got any thoughts on subject?

[Ken Byng]

Round pullers have the advantage of being easy and quick to change the angle of pull. I was once taken to task for calling pullers bell cranks. From all accounts only Emmons push pull guitars have bell cranks and all others have pullers.

I would prefer metal cross shafts to go into aluminium brackets without DELRIN or other self lubricating plastic bushings, with bronze bushes as the preferred option. Metal generally vibrates better than plastic - and Gary Rittenberry has made this point with one or two of his customers.

Do not regret growing older - it is a privilege denied to many.

[Tony Smart]

I agree with Ken on the Bushings point.
Anything plastic has got a certain amount of give in it, which is the last thing you want for bearings on a steel.
Delrin, Nylon, PTFE etc. is normally only used when there is light loading on them.
I don't like the George L tuning nuts for that reason. You can bend them with your hand. Far better to use Nylon or Nylon 6.6

Just my opinion.

[Ivor Greenwood]

Ha ha ...Looks like you old boys are getting to grips with all this metal stuff....A steel guitar is a mechanical instrument......It has a Metallic sound, no matter who builds it.......A bronze bush in the cross rods is ok...But it is prone to wear...Delran and Tufnell work well and are inexpensive....There is always a little bit of friction when using that application....However, as the movement is limited the friction is not a big issue.. The Mullen G2 has roller bearings on each end of the cross rods... Good engineering, but some would say not necessary because of the limited amount of travel...A Mullen G2 is a really well made guitar, as are all the Mullens...Here is another theory on the tone approach....I tried to buy Frank Carters personal Infinity at Dallas last year...Of course he would not part with it.. No amount of money would make him change his mind.....I asked him why he preferred a Mica guitar ,instead of a Lacquer finish guitar...He said that he thought the Mica guitar had a brighter tone to it.......The Mica supposedly, makes it a stiffer body and perhaps resonate better....Well...ok...If you take a wooden body and coat it with any type of glue .... stick the Mica to it.. Now when the glue hardens...You have a cushion of glue, effectively insulating the Mica from the wood....Surely that can't be the answer... ...Maybe that's why Show pro, only offer their guitars, in top quality, maple Lacquer finish body's...

Well when you look at the small market for steel guitars.... and consider everything that has been well tried , over the years.....I'm sure everyone will agree...Not even old money bags Ken would be crazy enough to bankroll a new design by an idiot like me

Malcom...were do we go from here ?...More sleepless nights...I'm way too old for this deal...better switch the amp on...pick a few strings and dream a little more