Is enough being done to protect intermediate players?

[timdjango]

A lot is made on the forum of the scarcity of young steel players and the difficulty of getting into the instrument.

While the difficulty of the steel is undoubtedly linked to its mechanics, there is also the issue of making an easy and safe purchase.

Nearly every intermediate player I know has at some point been sold a guitar with a deeply troubling history and set of issues. Some have been put off the instrument by this. We are all aware of instruments that circulate between owners every few years, who each underplay the instrument's faults in order to make their money back and save face.

In my case, I recently imported a publicly recommended steel from the states to find problems beyond what was advertised. I was able to secure a partial refund, in order to sell it on at its true value. It was picked up by an experienced player, well equipped to deal with its issues and not an intermediate, who would have been stuck like I was. In this sense, I feel I did the right thing.

Consumer protection and transparency is very important, so developing players may purchase their first 'pro' instrument safely and with full disclosure.

Are we doing enough? Based on the evidence of my eyes, I don't think so. This is a very small community and it can be very easy to conceal or underplay a steel's shortcomings, even with a less experienced player getting to try it first. There can also be considerable unspoken pressure not to speak badly of another steelie.

I think that this is something that needs to be discussed so as to come to some sort of community understanding regarding the selling of steels to players who may be vulnerable through their lack of experience. I would love it if people would share their stories and suggestions below.

[Will C]

A good point, Tim, it's easy to under-emphasise the shortcomings of a steel without being dishonest, purely because one has managed to "accommodate" them over the years. I have not sold many steels, and can only say I try to be honest and open - but it's a valid point. The difficulty is in "opening up" about these things without being seen to "diss" another steelie, isn't it?

[Malcolm]

Tim, buying a steel is like buying a car, unless you have the "knowledge" then it is always advisable to have an expert advise you.There are many of us more experienced players all over the country who would be willing to go check over a guitar with someone less experienced.Sorry I don't know the details of your purchase, or whether you took any advice on it, but when it arrived did you have anyone look it over and perhaps help with any adjustments (or repairs) needed?
I am sorry you found yourself in this situation, if you look on b0b's forum, you will see an article by Ken Byng about buying unseen, a very informative article.
I accept that there are some unscrupulous sellers out there ( not necessarily players themselves) , some have no knowledge of the instrument they are selling, and as you say some who just do not tell the whole truth, but there are many on here who will be happy to help , youv'e just got to ask.
Hope whatever you have now is working out for you.

[timdjango]

Many thanks Malcolm., I do appreciate the advice. I certainly did take advice both before and after buying from an expert and former builder. We did the cabinet measurements together when it arrived, to our shock and dismay.

There simply was not enough available information to make what I would now consider a reasoned judgement. Pictures of undercarriages simply don't tell the whole story.

Which leads me to question, if you were to buy a steel, what is all the information you would ideally like. Could there be such thing as a steel MOT or service record? Could this be worth money?

I am thinking, Age, Condition, Cabinet drop, Copedant, Owners. Let me know your thoughts.

Tim

[SHAKEY]

I agree with Malcom it is like buying a car (second hand,) unless you take it to bits you have no idea how badly parts are worn. Even if the car has only done 10,000 miles it could be knackered depending on how it was driven. The same applies to a steel, some people play the pedals harder than other people so you have no idea what condition the changer is in unless you take it apart. If you were goint to buy a second hand car that originally cost £10,000 would you pay £9,500 for it? I think the answer is NO unless of course you are buying a vintage car. I have said it for a long time that people ask far to much for second hand steels. A new steel these days is a very expensive item so, as has been suggested every care should be taken if you go for a used one. Just because a new steel cost 3 or 4 grand doesn't make your old one any more valuable.You only have to look on Ebay to see what I mean, someone trying to sell a Carter starter for £770 originally £800. Don't try telling me that is a reasonable price for a used CS. I think that's enough from me.

[derek evans 15]

Hi i just wonder if it,s not better to buy a steel in the U.K We have some brilliant steel builders here .Also some good used steels that can be bought here . Some sellers say collect ,and that is a chance to try it out . Regards Derek.

[Ken Byng]

I bought an Emmons LG3 on eBay once. It looked great in the photos, but when I got to see it close up I was mortified. Ron Lashley Jnr had sold this guitar new to a guy in England in totally inferior condition. The aluminium neck on the front was unbelievably pitted, as was the pedal bar - way beyond what is acceptable. The guy who bought it took the guitar to Eric Snowball, who for some reason convinced the owner that he didn't need the C6 neck and stripped out all of the pull rods on that neck. The guitar was past being a basket case. At the risk of losing my 100% feedback rating on eBay, I declined to accept the guitar, on the basis that the seller described the guitar as being in very good condition. I got my money back, but did feel sorry for the seller who had been completely and utterly ripped off.

I would advise any newby to take someone with you who is completely independant of the seller if you are thinking of buying a pedal steel guitar. Better still, consider going to Gerry Hogan or Ted Nesbitt, as these guys only deal in very clean and fully working instruments. JMHO.

[Malcolm]

Tim,don't think there is any viable way an MOT type system could work, being spread over multi continents you could never get everyone to sign up to it.In my own case I purchased my Milly "sight unseen " off American forum, I had some knowledge of guitars past, but took chance on buying it.I was looking for the lightest,quality brand guitar I could get at time due back problems.The guy who bought it from the original owner agreed to take it to the Dallas show, where my good friend Ian Forbes brought it back for me.The guy who sold it to me had told me he had changed the copedent to some strange set up but agreed to put it back to original.When guitar arrived back in Uk we discovered he had only partially done so, and Alan Thompson took it, using his Milly to copy set up, unfortunately mine was earlier model so it took a long time experimenting to get it working the way it should.I got it at a good price and once sorted out was vey happy with it, so much so that I decided to have it brought up to the latest standard by MSA at factory, so I now have a Virtually new guitar, that will do me till I pop clogs.
You are correct in saying there are good UK builders, Ron Bennett and Dave Wheelhouse spring to mind, also as Ken said use reputable dealers like Ted and Gerry if possible.

[WineRider]

I read all the comments with interest, especially with all the shinanigins with Pay Pal so my simple advice for any newcomer to pedal or lap steel is to look around and find the nearest player to you who is listed in the membership section. Private e-mail or make contact with them and ask for advice or help. From my experience of this forum you will get instant help and advice, which comes from years or experience and in some cases having fallen fowl of the dreaded bad buy themselves. We all make mistakes somewhere in our lives and most of us learn from them. So if in doubt ask. If you were lost you would automatically ask for directions, so why not ask over buying PSG or LSG. Many on the forum might know who the seller is or who the reseller villains are or who are just downright rip off merchants...and lets face it there are plenty of these.

WineRider

[Tony Smart]

Tim,
You say people shouldn’t conceal a steel’s shortcomings and the fact that it was sold to you virtually not as described. However, you’ve concealed the facts from us.

How about starting the ball rolling and tell us what this steel is, it's problems and who sold it to you. There are always two sides and this still gives room for other parties to reply.

With respect, I’m trying to steer you in a direction that may help other players, especially concerning a perhaps dubious seller.

Ken and Malcolm have both pulled no punches with their posts and details. This is what the Forum's for. If you’ve got problems maybe this is one of the first places you should air them.

I don’t think anyone buys a steel new or s/h that doesn’t need some minor or perhaps major adjustment. No steel is 100% perfect or will suit you perfectly.

So, get it off your chest and help others by giving us the facts. If people do that then others on here can learn and more often than not someone can put you on the right track.
Tony