The British Steelies Society

This could well become a


Regardless..
I often read that this or that player is a good jazz steelie, rubbish: playing standards and swinging them slightly doesn't qualify as jazz per se, at least not in the realms of 'Real Musicians' or indeed respected Jazz Critics.
So is jazz being played on the steel guitar, or is it just emulated and 'ripped off' runs ?

Methinks that a lot of the time the so called jazz solos by some players are just a collection of 'lucky guesses'; and tried and trusted licks based on a limited knowledge of musical theory.
The business of "Real Musicians" is a rather thorny subject. For instance, a REAL musician would consider the only REAL Jazz steel guitarist to be Buddy E.

REASON, the others are just using his licks and emulating what he played. He set the style and yardstick, and I'm afraid that the others are simply "trottin' behind"
That style of Steel playing BEFORE the Emmons Jazz album was more in the realms of "Swing" and was at a much lower level of improvisation.

Most of the steel players I know are NOT musicians, but well rehearsed and practised instrumentalists. Not pointing the finger, but the only steel player I know that has a deep understanding of music and theory, is Buddy Emmons.
If you don't know what a half diminished is or what inversion of the tonic chord should follow a dominant 13b5b9 with the 13th on top*, then you're probably falling into my initial description. IF on the other hand you DO know, then you probably learned on an instrument OTHER than steel guitar and progressed ? to the steel bringing your earlier tuition with you.

One further point to bear in mind, knowing these things doesn't make one superior or conversely NOT knowing make one inferior, but having the right weapons in one's arsenal SOMETIMES has its benefits and advantages. BUT Being able to play some of Buddy's solos DOESN'T make you a jazz musician, just a competent plagiarist and slightly above average player.

Saying I don't know enough about music to hurt my playing (As a famous American player said) is a 'cop out' and really just an excuse for a less diligent approach to playing. In this day of the internet, there is simply NO EXCUSE for wrong words, chords or melody. The biggest library in the world is at our fingertips, not using it or claiming not to know how, just isn't acceptable.
As for playing to please musicians, forget it. They are the last to pay in on the door (Usually) and the 'punter' is the one you're being paid to entertain, amuse or whatever.
Fortunately I can wear varying hats and regularly teach beginners EFFECTIVELY, so being an MA and BMus hasn't affected my ability to switch off some of the grey matter from time to time. (Sometimes inadvertently) "Don't we all ?"

(* Its a tonic maj7 with the third on top)

Interesting post Baz.

Are you specifically talking Jazz or generalising about steel playing/players?

I can tell you one thing, those punters you mention, I doubt 99.9% of em would know a- tonic maj7th with the third on top
from a scaffold plank, just an observation. OK! no excuses for wrong chords, wrong words etc but melody? it would be a boring life if we couldnt improvise. Having said that I do know where your coming from, I have seen stuff posted on youtube that I cant even recognise as being the song thay are supposed to be playing.

It will be interesting to see the responses to this one.
Dave.

Dave Nutt wrote:Interesting post Baz.
Are you specifically talking Jazz or generalising about steel playing/players?
It will be interesting to see the responses to this one.
Dave.

If there is a definition of Jazz per se, there is an accepted norm.

The crux of the matter is that it involves INVENTIVE IMPROVISATION, and usually a statement of the correct melody initially.

Most genres of music involve the listener into the realm of the completed work as it was scored. Jazz draws the onlooker to a deeper league, that of a partnership so to speak, of being along when each new phrase is created, when each inspired motive is often the interactive result of audience involvement. Jazz music's dynamic is its "newness" which can be attributed to the defining component - improvisation.

Any discussion of jazz must first begin with the fundamental question, "What is jazz?" One might define jazz as a form of musical self-expression that transcends the established limits of the European classical tradition and emphasizes both an exceptional level of technical ability and an intimate personal revelation of the individual musicians within a variety of ensemble settings, but that sort of talk isn't likely to get you invited to too many parties. It is easier to define jazz in a similar fashion to the way pornography was defined by Justice Potter Stewart, you know it when you see it. Or rather, when you hear it. Jazz, that is, not pornography (although, jazz is sometimes used as background music for porno flicks. I have no personal knowledge of this).

OK I'd better illustrate the point with examples, This is Jazz on the steel guitar, a slow standard, There Will Never be Another You
and a quick one, Oleo

To even the most rigid of purists, THIS would be Jazz.

Establishing the melody first then improvising, adding cryptic musical comments and switching the soloists for a musical conversation.


OK Buddy Emmons wasn't too happy with his tone on the session because the amp wasn't really up to what he wanted, and 'broke up' on some passages but it didn't deter him one iota.

Read what Buddy had to say about the album and what he used here:-
http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Ar ... 08831.html
And here :- http://steelguitarforum.com/Archives/Ar ... 13860.html

Buddy has a great observation about Jazz on the steel guitar

Jazz is the most exciting music I have ever listened to, but I don't kid myself when it comes to being a jazz player. As much as we've all progressed since I recorded the Steel Guitar Jazz album, not one of us could survive a set with Dizzy, Byrd, Roach, or Coltrane in the late forties. Get a legitimate jazz rhythm section together today, call the tunes, and Shazam, you become jazz steel guitar player. Try sitting in with that same group in their element and you'll find yourself whistling past the graveyard.

Thanks Baz, I guess thats answers my question- you are talking specifically about Jazz.
Love that version of- There Will Never be Another You.

Hi Basil, I'm aware of that quote from Buddy. I read it some years ago. It was very instructive to learn that even he did not consider himself capable for surviving as a real jazz man. I have been amazed to discover that the real musical geniusez are such humble people. I haven't come across any of them with an arrogant know-it-all attitude. Most of them realise that they don't know everything and never stop trying to reach another level of discovery.

Most of the steel players I know are NOT musicians, but well rehearsed and practised instrumentalists.

I have to take issue with you on this one Baz. Learning licks, tricks and instrumentals is part of being a musician. It's a vital part of the skill set. Being inventive and good at improvising is another aspect of the skill set which some have developed to an extraordinary level. Others have chosen not to focus on this aspect. Yehudi Menuhin couldn't improvise to save his life. When he made those famous TV recordings with Stefan Grapelli the great maestro had to have his apparently extemporised passages written out for him. He learned them by heart and duly trotted them out come show time. Are we to say that Menuhin was not a great musician because he couldn't busk and just repeated great music from the past parrot fashion? Of course we can't say that. We can say that he lacked the skill to improvise. No doubt this was because the genre of music with which he was involved places no value on improvisation. It used to. The whole idea of a cadenza in a concerto was to allow the soloist demonstrate their improvisatory brilliance. Sadly this tradition has lapsed. I believe that if Menuhin had worked at improvisation he would have become very good indeed. However, as he freely admitted, there was a great inertia imposed on him by the strict discipline of his entire musical upbringing. This is such a pity.

On the other hand jazz places great value on improvisation. A good jazz man must constantly work at this aspect as well as being in possession of technical prowess to rival any top classical virtuoso. So jazz rules? Maybe. I don't know but the debate is interesting.


As for steel jazz players merely learning off Buddy's licks and spraying them around the place in the hope that some might land in the right place. Yes there's lots of that. There's good jazz and lots and lots of bad jazz. Steel players don't have a monopoly on bad jazz. There are plenty of horn, piano and guitar players playing terrible stuff that they dare call jazz.

I must get you a new tin opener for Christmas baz, your old must be almost worn out this year!

Your points re Yehudi Menuhin are MOST valid, However, my statement about most steel players should have read (Steel Players that I know)

Surely being a musician involves the ability to recognise and DESCRIBE chord progressions and be 'au fait' with the usage of scalic phraseology.
I make no apologies that I would categorically state that in my opinion, without a sound knowledge of music and musical theory, one is only an instrumentalist.

Whilst most dictionaries describe a musician thusly:-

A musician is a person who performs or writes music. Musicians can be classified by their roles in creating or performing music: * An instrumentalist plays a musical instrument. * A singer (or vocalist) uses his or her voice as an instrument. ...

Just imagine this conversation about a specific lick. "You know the lick John Hughey plays at the beginning of the middle 8 of ??? well what inversion of the tonic is that?"

No.1. That conversation MAY occur betwixt a teacher and student, between accomplished players, I think not.
Most accomplished players would know.
Does NOT knowing makes them inferior ?,
NO, but it does make them less knowledgeable and therefore less capable.

In the world of Jazz where improvisational expertise is the main yardstick, the best men in that realm are mini composers. In many definitions of "musician" the use of the phraseology "artist who composes or conducts music as a profession" is a revealing judgemental standard.

So its patently obvious that reading or writing music also plays a part in the description, not to the exclusion of the other requisite traits, but as an extension of the descriptive term.

I know that reading is only part of it, and we oft make jokes about drummers, intimating that they are not musicians and they just hang around musicians.. Well. a few drummers I know have SIGHT READING skills that are phenomenal.
Johnny Wadham could read the morning paper whilst playing on a session and reading the dots simultaneously..Likewise Noel Kelehan.. Now THEY ARE musicians, not because of their nonchalant approach,(Which is naughty somewhat)
But inclusive knowledge of their instrument and its place within the overall genre's of music would be foremost in their mindset.

As you know, I am an AMATEUR etymologist and collect dictionaries and encyclopaedia, I have a litmus test that I apply to dictionaries, the word "wayzgoose" (well known in Margate or Blackpool and Fleet Street) if it's not in, then I don't bother with that particular dictionary.
Similarly I have an even more acid test for "Musician" besides the obvious, i.e. dexterity and diligence etc. I pose the question describe the usage of the half diminished chord, and instance it.
This is only for my own personal edification and enlightenment and to allow me to see inside the player's mind.
Again I simply MUST stress, it's only MY WAY to help ME assess capabilities..

I am not making a 'carte blanche' statement to the world in general, just to myself as to whether I consider a specific player a musician, maybe my interpretation of the word is too strict, it's just my own assessment and description based on a semi educated insight.

QED Cogito ergo sum..

I concur absolutely on the importance of a sound knowledge of music theory. A lot of people can get away with knowing very little theory if they play music that only uses 1, 4, 5 and occasionally 2 chords. When the music starts to get more complicated as in jazz then you simply have to know more about what you're doing. I don't understand why people shy away from learning music theory. It helps to explain why music works the way it does and helps to make you a better a better musician. The layout of the E9 neck was conceived by certain gentlemen with a very firm grasp of music theory. I never did get to meet John Wadham. I have to be content with having seen him on television.

I'm struggling to think of a country song with a min7-5 chord....oh yes, I got one - Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue.