In search of the lost chord
Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:35 pm
Anyone got any bright ideas for finding 11th chords on E9 psg? - I'm on an Emmons set up pedals and left knees, and limited right knees - I can lower 6th a wholetone and raise 1 a half-tone on RKL and RKR lowers 2 and 9 a half-tone.
I know 4 note chords are difficult to achieve with three fingers! I have started using a 3rd finger pick, although it feels a bit clumsy but as a (previous) guitarist using the A finger (PIMA for those in the know) isn't a problem per se.
Will Cowell quotes Jeff Newman suggesting using the less common notes in 'altered' chords, relying on other players to fill in root notes but if you are playing psg alone, at home, then this isn't really feasible. Picking three of the four notes in an 11th chord results in a rather 'thin-sounding' chord, and some of the triads involved sound 'wrong' (to my ears at least).
I have hunted and picked my way around the fretboard trying to find a useable 11th, to no avail so far... although I've got a couple of reasonable alternatives, but they don't quite hit the button...
Any thoughts/advice? I am trying to work out 'Midnight at the Oasis' - the Maria Muldaur version and, yes, I've even picked out a facsimile of the Amos Garrett solo (which I always thought should have been on psg anyway, with all the slides and three-note bends) and the 11th chord is the missing link to what is a useable(or at least recognisable) version.
Here's hoping!
I know 4 note chords are difficult to achieve with three fingers! I have started using a 3rd finger pick, although it feels a bit clumsy but as a (previous) guitarist using the A finger (PIMA for those in the know) isn't a problem per se.
Will Cowell quotes Jeff Newman suggesting using the less common notes in 'altered' chords, relying on other players to fill in root notes but if you are playing psg alone, at home, then this isn't really feasible. Picking three of the four notes in an 11th chord results in a rather 'thin-sounding' chord, and some of the triads involved sound 'wrong' (to my ears at least).
I have hunted and picked my way around the fretboard trying to find a useable 11th, to no avail so far... although I've got a couple of reasonable alternatives, but they don't quite hit the button...
Any thoughts/advice? I am trying to work out 'Midnight at the Oasis' - the Maria Muldaur version and, yes, I've even picked out a facsimile of the Amos Garrett solo (which I always thought should have been on psg anyway, with all the slides and three-note bends) and the 11th chord is the missing link to what is a useable(or at least recognisable) version.
Here's hoping!
Re: In search of the lost chord
Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:07 pm
Hi Nick,
If you play your major chord with A+B down then you can just add the lowered 2nd string on top to get the 11th. I think.
So, you'll need A+B held down and also your 'D' lever used to drop that second string. With those pedals/levers engaged and playing strings 2, 4, 5, 6 you'll get an AMaj11 at the 0 fret (for example). Of course, you can even put the 3rd string in if you like as that is also the root note of the chord.
Does that help?
If you play your major chord with A+B down then you can just add the lowered 2nd string on top to get the 11th. I think.
So, you'll need A+B held down and also your 'D' lever used to drop that second string. With those pedals/levers engaged and playing strings 2, 4, 5, 6 you'll get an AMaj11 at the 0 fret (for example). Of course, you can even put the 3rd string in if you like as that is also the root note of the chord.
Does that help?
Re: In search of the lost chord
Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:06 pm
Um... I don't think so. If I wanted to play G11, for example, I need the notes A,G,B & D. A11 would be B,A, C# & E. Pedals down on open strings gives the A triad, but there isn't a B to be found anywhere!
Re: In search of the lost chord
Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:10 pm
G11 is the notes G,B,D,C. If you're looking for a chord using A,G,B,D then you're probably after playing a G9 because A is the 9th tone of the G major scale.
G is the 1st and 8th tone,
A the 2nd and 9th
B the 3rd and 10th
...continuing onwards in that pattern.
You can play G9 by using no pedals 3rd fret on strings 5, 4, 3, 1 - giving you a chord that uses G, B, D and has the A on top. I imagine that you want the A on top of the chord as it could sound pretty muddy as the bass note.
However, if you do want to stick it I'm the bass then play 3rd fret no pedals on strings 4, 5,6, 7.
I hope none of this is patronising, just trying to be clear in my reasoning.
G is the 1st and 8th tone,
A the 2nd and 9th
B the 3rd and 10th
...continuing onwards in that pattern.
You can play G9 by using no pedals 3rd fret on strings 5, 4, 3, 1 - giving you a chord that uses G, B, D and has the A on top. I imagine that you want the A on top of the chord as it could sound pretty muddy as the bass note.
However, if you do want to stick it I'm the bass then play 3rd fret no pedals on strings 4, 5,6, 7.
I hope none of this is patronising, just trying to be clear in my reasoning.
Re: In search of the lost chord
Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:36 pm
Cock-up alert! Got the notes wrong - G11 is GCFAD, and A11 ADGBE (no C# as I'd put in my last post). That's what you get thinking guitar fretboard and trying to translate to psg fretboard...
Let me study your last post Henry at the steel! May be having a senior moment (and not the firat, either!)
Let me study your last post Henry at the steel! May be having a senior moment (and not the firat, either!)
Re: In search of the lost chord
Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:42 pm
Henry - sorry, don't agree with your G11 as being GBDC - that sounds and looks more like a suspended 4th. I'm looking to get root, flattened 7th, 9th and 11th into the chord - G, F, A, C, in that order. A fifth note would be D - the fifth of G. That's how I read it anyway. So, still struggling to find the lost chord!
All the best
Nick
All the best
Nick
Re: In search of the lost chord
Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:13 pm
3rd fret, B pedal, lever that lowers 2nd a 1/2.
According to me that should be bottom to top:- D, F, G, A, C, D, G, C, F, A.
Sounds just like opening chord to 'A Hard Day's Night'
According to me that should be bottom to top:- D, F, G, A, C, D, G, C, F, A.
Sounds just like opening chord to 'A Hard Day's Night'
Re: In search of the lost chord
Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:27 am
Pete is bang on the money here Pete.
Though guitarists claim fifty ways to play it but the official notes are GBDFAC and Pete's version gives you all but the B ....
The only way to get that would be to put a full tone raise on your 7th string and omit the 6th when playing the chord!
So to try it....
Wind your 7th string up two notes to test it (a full tone raise) Then B pedal and ½ lower on your second string! those notes when struck from 8 through 1 are a G11 chord. They may not be the right way round but they ring as a G11
Though guitarists claim fifty ways to play it but the official notes are GBDFAC and Pete's version gives you all but the B ....
The only way to get that would be to put a full tone raise on your 7th string and omit the 6th when playing the chord!
So to try it....
Wind your 7th string up two notes to test it (a full tone raise) Then B pedal and ½ lower on your second string! those notes when struck from 8 through 1 are a G11 chord. They may not be the right way round but they ring as a G11
Re: In search of the lost chord
Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:27 am
Spot on! Thanks Pete and Bob! Funny how you can peck around for hours trying to find something, and failing, getting more and more frustrated - and there it is!! Back to Midnight at the Oasis with new resolve!!
Re: In search of the lost chord
Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:09 pm
Hi Bob,
Technically the inclusion of the B is correct but, quote from Wikipedia “However, since the major diatonic eleventh would create a dissonant minor ninth interval with the third of the chord, including the third is a rare phenomenon.”
I think this is a good thing 'cos I don't seem to be able to find a full 11th chord anywhere on the guitar without adding an extra pull to achieve the third. Of course I have been wrong before (just ask my Wife ). Mind you I havent looked at the C6th tuning yet...
More thorough explanation See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleventh_chord but I expect you knew that stuff already...
Technically the inclusion of the B is correct but, quote from Wikipedia “However, since the major diatonic eleventh would create a dissonant minor ninth interval with the third of the chord, including the third is a rare phenomenon.”
I think this is a good thing 'cos I don't seem to be able to find a full 11th chord anywhere on the guitar without adding an extra pull to achieve the third. Of course I have been wrong before (just ask my Wife
). Mind you I havent looked at the C6th tuning yet...More thorough explanation See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleventh_chord but I expect you knew that stuff already...