Old chord - new inversion?

[Will C]

I was working on "For the Good Times" by KK and there's a beautiful, complex chord just before the words "For the good times" at the end of the chorus. In my book it's A7b9. The flattened ninth is what really "makes" the chord. But it's a b*tch to play it accurately and get out of it cleanly. On my Willy (rofl) you have to put the bar at the 10th fret, pedal A&B, E's lowered, and then flatten that ninth on the A by using LKV to lower that fifth string one semitone. Ok, you can just half-pedal the A instead, but either way the chord is no picnic.

I did some thinking: where else can I find that note instead? Surprise surprise, there's a much easier way to get that same chord: bar at the fifth fret, raise E's. That's A#dim. Musically, it seems to be identical. So much easier and quicker to find, because diminished chords recur every 3 frets up and down. So if you are around the 10th fret, you can use 8F or 11F. 8F sounds good cus you can slide back into the D on 10. Choice of strings? Avoid 7 & 2, ensure 4 or 8 is included.

So A7b9= A#dim, B7b9= Cdim, etc, always. I don't see this on any of the music theory websites I go to, when I'm looking for chord synonyms. Is this the best kept secret or am I not looking properly? Either way, I'm chuffed to discover it. Yeah yeah, smartypants etc, but I had to share.

Will

[JohnDavisStringsHere]

I still prefer to use half pedal there Will, just go smooth it out a bit...........

[Tony Russell Davis]

Will - Listen to cousin John. Half-pedal is not an easy skill, but well worth the practise. Tony

[Nick Bidmade]

You're not wrong Will (even if you're not right), if you see what I mean. Are you a guitarist? Same notes, same 'shape', flattened ninth or diminished seventh. Like playing an A7 chord (with open a, G and E strings and fretting strings 2 &4 at 2nd fret, add Bb on 5th string, et voila!

[Will C]

Yes Nick, but you lose the root note doing it like that - although a lot of "practical" (i.e. playable!) inversions are arrived at (on 6 string guitar as well as the pedal steel) by omitting the root. It gives a little more tonal ambiguity, multiplying the options for chord substitutions. Yes, I messed around with the 6 string for 40 years before trying the PSG. Not that you'd know it from hearing me play....

Tony, John, yes, I can do the half-A pedal, I use it frequently, but there's something to be said for a version of the chord that definitely produces the notes, straight up, no messing, surely? Thought I'd get some brownie points for this one....

[JanO]

Will: correct. A7b9 is the same notes as a A#dim, not counting the loss of the root (note A). As mentioned already.
But because no one has said this here: the advantage of using the half-pedal option is that it is fuller sounding, because all four notes of the chord are present. (strings 8,7,6,5). Not so in your (good and very usable) solution, where on strings 8,6,5,4 there's only three notes (8 & 4= same note)

[Will C]

Yes Jan, we lose the root - as you say, only 3 notes out of four. A bit like the use of a 7th chord (up 3, raise E's) instead of a Dim. Only 3 of the 4 notes of the dim chord present, but it works well enough. I remember advice from Jeff Newman: "only play what really makes the chord special. You can rely on the bassist or the keyboard for the root. Rhythm guitar or keyboard will likely give you the 3 and the 5 also. Go for the unusual note that makes the chord stand out. Less to play, quicker to get, cleaner, clearer sound." I've found it to be true. So I try not to stress, trying to find every single note, so long as it sounds right. I tried it last night in a studio session with a new group I am working with. Yes, the "quick & dirty" chord works well. No, it isn't quite as warm, and full, as the full chord. Your mileage may vary! :

Will C

[sabatica]

Why don't you play Lap Steel Guitar steel and leave those pedals. Sorry had to be said.

Also a 7b9 can be played easily on my Lap Steel Guitar. Even on an 8 string? Maybe its your tuning????

Eg C7b9 = Cake
Cdim7 = Joy

Get the idea. Why have a huge pedal steel that when you get old you can forget about carrying it with you for jamming sessions or regular gigs. Long live Lap Steel Guitar Steel.

[henry]

Cake? Joy? I'm up for both but what does it mean?!

[Will C]

Puts me in mind of that old priest in Father Ted who just shouted out random words every so often...