Tuning.

[slimbo]

Tuning the 4th string, and how many of you steelies have come across this problem?.
Most of the older members will know, and if you do just say I do, don't tell yet as I want to know how many know as this is a feature to help them as don't know, had cause to help a newby of late who got caught up in the problem.
4th string E, up to F# on pedal, also up to F on knee lever, and down to Eb on knee lever.
Problem, tune string to E, then tune to Eb only to find the string does not come back to E when letting off the knee lever, re tune string, then finding the string does not go down all the way to Eb, same goes for E to F, tune up to F, let off to find the string wont come back to E.
This can drive one insane if you don't know how to sort it, and it's the sort of problem anyone can get from constant tuning of the 4th string and it's relavent movement's over a period of time.
I'm looking just for an I do, not the answer as you all ready know it, I'm looking for the one's who don't.

[David Hartley]

Well of course.

My answer is I DO?...

I will let you answer any, I DONTS.......

[slimbo]

I have a two hour video I shot of Emmons at the Newbury Steel Fez in 84, It was a question answer with Scotty passing on the questions to buddy, and one of the questions was on this knee lever subject, to which Buddy stated, it was a wast of a knee if you used seperate levers to raise and lower the E string on different knees, which if you think about it is logic, they are of more use on the same knee, leaving you the other knee to do something usfull with.

[slimbo]

How about Tuning, do you stay with a 440, use a Peterson pre tuned ar use another form.
We all have different ways to tune, lets hear yours.
Just trying to get a few threads going guy's, if you have any ideas put them up, the site needs imput.

[henry]

re. original post
I DONT! have a clue what you're talking about!
I think I had a similar problem on my Marlen, but my understanding was that it was related to a pull release mech needing a bit of slack in the setup.
Is this the same thing you're describing?


Also:
can someone explain the Jeff Newman tuning thing to me?
is this
a)to compensate for slight cabinet drop
or
b) to make up for the differences between natural harmonics and a scale tempered into even semitones


p.s. Slimbo please can you post the two hour video of Emmons chat?! thanks

[slimbo]

Sorry Henry, need Jerry's permission, as Emmons only let me shoot it on condition I would not put it up for publication or sell it.
The detuneing of the E's can be self inflicted over time, it's knowing how to right the problem without deconstructing the steel.
I ues a Peterson Tuner and I dont think even one string is tuned to 440, they are all a few cent's one way or the other, it's an interesting composition, but it works well.
Mind you, I still carry my BOSS tuner incase.

[Zebedee]

This is my method for tuning the cabinet drop out of all-pull steels (not push-pull)

Tune most of the strings approximately up to pitch, in order to get the guitar under tension.

Press A + B pedals, and tune all the strings that have not been activated (1 2 4 7 8 9) up to pitch, with the machine heads.

Release the pedals, and take particular note of the pitch of the 4th string. It will probably be sharp.
Don't alter it.

Tune the 3rd, 5th, 6th and 10th string by ear (with the machine heads) until they sound in tune with the 4th (and 8th string)

Press pedals A + B, and tune strings 3 5 6 10 up to pitch (with the nylon tuners on the endplate)
Check the 4th and 8th strings to make sure that they are still at the correct pitch

Release A + B pedals.

Press pedals B + C, and tune strings 4 + 5 up to pitch, with the nylon tuners.

Release pedals

[JohnDavisStringsHere]

Nice one Richard,,,,,,,,, you is clever lad

[STEDDIE EDDIE]

a very interesting topic Slimbo, and one that does deserve much needed input, i suppose the very nature of the beast has to be compromise, im not really as mechanically minded as some of the guys who look in here, but i can appreciate some of the stresses and strains thats going on underneath the steel guitar, strings being pulled and slackened, sometimes at the same time by different knee levers or pedals, so its not rocket science that the steel guitar can never be truly in tune, and there is one factor that a lot of guys are not taking into consideration, and its the biggest factor of all in my humble opinion, you can spend hundreds on the best state of the art peterson tuners, and spend hours fine tuning the open strings with pedals and levers in or out, have them near as dam perfect, but then how many times have you heard certain players start to play, and they can not place the bar in the right position, they either play noticably flat or even worse 'sharp' which totally negates the initial precision tuning of open strings, its all in the ear, what sounds right to you, i think my bar placement is reasonably accurate, you may disagree, and i have only one example of me playing live in a non gig situation, and apologies to those who have already seen the video, but this was played with strings tuned to a440 pitch, and time spent tuning in the levers and pedals, correct bar placement is vital

[James Crowbear]

Jean Yves Lozach came up w: this software to measure & tune according to one's cabinet drop :
http://www.lozach.com/tuning.php
have a look on this long thread & see if you can get the basics & essentials out of it
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=164485
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=164485

before tuners, tuning by harmonics was the way

start by tuning your Es ( 4&8 ) w: pedals A&B down to 440, 441 or 442
whichever you prefer
release A & B & proceed :

using harmonics on each :
on left : reference tone / on right : string to tune
you'll be using frets 5 7 & 12 mostly
you will also need a harmonic on the 4th fret - certainly not as easy as on frets 5,7 & 12
look for it, it's there

lever E lowers Es a half
lever F raises Es a half
lever G raises F#s a whole
lever D lowers Eb a half
lever V lowers Bs a half

E : string 8 fret 5 / string 4 fret 12

since your Es are tuned you get the B note on fret 7 on strings 4 & 8

B : String 4 fret 7 / string 5 fret 5
B : string 8 fret 7 / string 5 fret 12
B : string 8 fret 7 / string 10 fret 5
B : string 10 fret 5 / string 5 fret 12

F# : string 5 fret 7 / String 1 fret 12
F# : string 1 fret 12 / string 7 fret 5

G# : string 8 fret 4 ( yep 4) / string 6 fret 5
G# : string 4 ( yep 4 ) / string 3 fret 5

Eb : string 5 fret 4 / string 2 fret 5

E : string 8 w: A&B fret 5 / string 6 w: A&B fret 7

A : string 6 w: A&B fret 5 / string 3 w: A&B fret 12
A : string 6 w: A&B fret 12 / string 9 fret 7

C# : string 5 w: A&B fret 12 / string 10 w: A&B fret 5
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 4 w: B&C fret 7
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 5 w: B&C fret 5

Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 4 w lever E fret 12
Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 8 w: lever E fret 5

B(G# lever): string 5 fret 5 / string 7 w: lever G fret 4
G# : string 3 fret 12 / string 1 w: lever G fret 12

F : string 5 w: A&B fret 4 / string 4 w: lever F fret 5
F : string 4 w: lever F fret 12 / string 8 w: lever F fret 5

Bb : string 7 fret 4 / string 5 w: lever V fret 5
Bb : string 5 w: lever V fret 12 / string 10 w: lever V fret 5

D : string 9 fret 5 / string 2 w: lever D fret 12

when tuning strings 1(F#) - 2(Eb)- 7(F#) note that the root/reference is B ......NOT... E
F# being the fifth & Eb being the third of B :
the fifth of B gets the same treatment/value as the fifth of E
the third of B gets the same treatment/value as the third of E
last but not least (the plot sickens lol)
when tuning F# on string 4 w: pedal C : F# is the root tone since the ref is an F# minor chord
here again it will get it's own treatment/value

Compromise is inevitable when tuning certain strings & combinations of levers &/or pedals
like F# on string 4 w: pedal C
& Eb on 4 & 2