I know its been done so many times before but Help! E v D
Sun Apr 30, 2023 7:59 am
I know it's been done before but can anybody tell me What are the advantages of Emmons set up over Day?
After 40 plus years of playing The day set up I can point 2 quite a few advantages to playing it, But when you get a contortionist like Emmons that reaches such an incredible standard it raises the bar even higher for us mere mortals to try to play his way.
Does understanding music theory unlock secrets as to why it's beneficial to play that way?, And is that the reason why I don't get it?
Any help with this would be much appreciated.JD
After 40 plus years of playing The day set up I can point 2 quite a few advantages to playing it, But when you get a contortionist like Emmons that reaches such an incredible standard it raises the bar even higher for us mere mortals to try to play his way.
Does understanding music theory unlock secrets as to why it's beneficial to play that way?, And is that the reason why I don't get it?
Any help with this would be much appreciated.JD
Re: I know its been done so many times before but Help! E v
Wed Jun 14, 2023 11:59 am
Hi John,
For what it's worth, I can't see any logical reason why one setup would be better over another! Essentially we are talking about the left leg, and which way it needs to rock to get certain combinations of pedals and knee levers. I know people have strong opinions on this, but here's my two pennyworth:
The ABC pedals and E and F levers do the same things whichever setup you have, so the same raises/lowers and combinations of these are always possible regardless whether it's Emmons or Day. With that in mind, I believe the Emmons/Day choice is completely separate from any understanding of musical theory, as exactly the same chords can be created through either.
What I think is a lot more relevant is the player's comfort. Buddy Emmons was very tall, and presumably had legs proportional to his height (!), so a simultaneous LKL and RKR (for example) may have felt quite natural to him. For me (much, much shorter than Buddy Emmons) I would find this combination quite uncomfortable.
I've only ever owned guitars with Day setup, and don't even think I've played one with Emmons setup - but I'm happy to stick my flag in the sand and say it really doesn't make any difference to the possibilities when it comes to playing the guitar, it's simply a matter of learning to play with the setup that is on there, or swapping so it's more comfortable.
For a parallel thought process, is there any advantage to driving a LHD car over a RHD car? The controls do the same thing but you use the opposite hand to change gear and work the wipers, etc.!
I shall wait to be gunned down by those who know better...
For what it's worth, I can't see any logical reason why one setup would be better over another! Essentially we are talking about the left leg, and which way it needs to rock to get certain combinations of pedals and knee levers. I know people have strong opinions on this, but here's my two pennyworth:
The ABC pedals and E and F levers do the same things whichever setup you have, so the same raises/lowers and combinations of these are always possible regardless whether it's Emmons or Day. With that in mind, I believe the Emmons/Day choice is completely separate from any understanding of musical theory, as exactly the same chords can be created through either.
What I think is a lot more relevant is the player's comfort. Buddy Emmons was very tall, and presumably had legs proportional to his height (!), so a simultaneous LKL and RKR (for example) may have felt quite natural to him. For me (much, much shorter than Buddy Emmons) I would find this combination quite uncomfortable.
I've only ever owned guitars with Day setup, and don't even think I've played one with Emmons setup - but I'm happy to stick my flag in the sand and say it really doesn't make any difference to the possibilities when it comes to playing the guitar, it's simply a matter of learning to play with the setup that is on there, or swapping so it's more comfortable.
For a parallel thought process, is there any advantage to driving a LHD car over a RHD car? The controls do the same thing but you use the opposite hand to change gear and work the wipers, etc.!
I shall wait to be gunned down by those who know better...
Re: I know its been done so many times before but Help! E v
Thu Jun 15, 2023 10:06 pm
Hi JD as you know to your own expense I play Emmons, purely because that is how my guitars have been set up.so it is all I have ever known.
You play Emmons far better than I play Day
Asleep at the Steel
You play Emmons far better than I play Day
Asleep at the Steel
Re: I know its been done so many times before but Help! E v
Fri Jun 16, 2023 7:01 pm
My first guitar was an Emmons Loafer which came with Day. I felt like trying a D10 and bought a ZB which was also Day.
My next guitar was a Zum D10 which was set up Emmons and I did not want to mess about underneath and so I learned to play Emmons.
I had three guitars after that and they all have been Emmons.
I probably found the Day set up a little easier when depressing the B pedal and lowering the E's Incidentally the E levers were on the left knees on both set ups.
I have often wondered why most buyers of new guitars ask for Emmons set up.
My next guitar was a Zum D10 which was set up Emmons and I did not want to mess about underneath and so I learned to play Emmons.
I had three guitars after that and they all have been Emmons.
I probably found the Day set up a little easier when depressing the B pedal and lowering the E's Incidentally the E levers were on the left knees on both set ups.
I have often wondered why most buyers of new guitars ask for Emmons set up.
Re: I know its been done so many times before but Help! E v
Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:00 am
I think a lot of the blame for it can be laid at the door of the Carter guitar company for their Carter starter .....They must have made thousands of them but if you wanted to play "Day" you have to completely rebuild it ! Thank your Lord for moveable cranks.
Re: I know its been done so many times before but Help! E v
Sat Jun 17, 2023 8:09 am
JD, my comments are the same as Billy and Willie all the guitars that I have had are all been Emmons set up which I find normal and comfortable to play which I am sure the Day players will say the same.
Why would I want to change now? Would you change to Emmons and why not ?
Why would I want to change now? Would you change to Emmons and why not ?
Re: I know its been done so many times before but Help! E v
Sat Jun 17, 2023 4:52 pm
well Uncle Roy for a start, how often do you use you E to f# pedal compared to how often you use the other two pedals?? If its a 1000 times less used than the other two pedals don't it make sense to have the two you use the most right in front of you and more or less in line with your leg position ? My Mrs. Used to say you can get used to hanging if you hang long enough .
I have had some Emmons set up guitars here and if the knee levers are a bit sloppy or slightly badly positioned you have to be a contortionist to play a G on the 6th fret and I don't like having my legs that far apart, I remember when my Daughter put me on one of her ponies and took me treccing across Brecon beacos I could'nt get off the bloody thing when we got back it ain't natural......
I look at some of the best, people like Emmons and DH and as good as they are, I think to myself how much better they would be if they played "Day".
I have had some Emmons set up guitars here and if the knee levers are a bit sloppy or slightly badly positioned you have to be a contortionist to play a G on the 6th fret and I don't like having my legs that far apart, I remember when my Daughter put me on one of her ponies and took me treccing across Brecon beacos I could'nt get off the bloody thing when we got back it ain't natural......
I look at some of the best, people like Emmons and DH and as good as they are, I think to myself how much better they would be if they played "Day".
Re: I know its been done so many times before but Help! E v
Sun Jun 18, 2023 7:00 am
I have always used the DAY setup, I did try the Emmons set up once but couldn't hack it. As for my knee levers my LKL is B's to Bb LKR is E to F, RKL is E to Eb and RKR is Eb to D/C# and 7th string F# to G also vertical pedal 6th string G# to F#. Lots of people say it's crazy having Eb's on the right knee but there are quite a few players that have them on the right knee including the late Bobby Lee. All down to personal choice and as has been said most importantly playing comfort.
Re: I know its been done so many times before but Help! E v
Sun Jun 18, 2023 7:35 am
J.D's closing remark made Me smile !!
If Buddy Emmons had played Day set up, how much better would He have been ?
What if Jimmy Day had played Emmons ?
If Buddy Emmons had played Day set up, how much better would He have been ?
What if Jimmy Day had played Emmons ?
Re: I know its been done so many times before but Help! E v
Sun Jun 18, 2023 9:47 am
I play Emmons setup as far as the A & B pedals are concerned. This is because when I first started playing and coming from a rock/blues background, I knew absolutely nothing about the pedal steel, (some might say I still don't!), and this is how my first steel was setup. Also most instruction books and YouTube vids are using the Emmons setup. I only learned about the Day setup at a later time and by then I was used to the Emmons setup.
My first steel was a GFI student with only two knee levers doing the E's and they were not set up conventionally on the left knee, the E lower was on the right knee. I decided that I wanted to get into 12 string Universal and bought the Carter 12, on this setup both E levers were on the right knee, raise on RKL and lower on RKR. The reason being it was easier to play in B6th mode using the RKR to lower the E's leaving the left leg free to engage the B6 pedals.
I got used to having the E's on my right leg, so the setup on my MSA has the same. I have tried other steels with the E's on the left leg and I can see the logic but actually I think it's easier to have the E's on the right leg as it is two separate actions to engage the A pedal with the E raise which is one of the most commonly used combinations.
I reckon that having the E's on the right leg means that it makes little difference whether A & B pedals are setup Emmons or Day as I'm not using my left knee in combination with these pedals at least not for the most common combinations.
In the end, IMHO, it's what you're used to and once the muscle memory is set it's difficult to change to another setup, though still possible with a lot of work and time.
My first steel was a GFI student with only two knee levers doing the E's and they were not set up conventionally on the left knee, the E lower was on the right knee. I decided that I wanted to get into 12 string Universal and bought the Carter 12, on this setup both E levers were on the right knee, raise on RKL and lower on RKR. The reason being it was easier to play in B6th mode using the RKR to lower the E's leaving the left leg free to engage the B6 pedals.
I got used to having the E's on my right leg, so the setup on my MSA has the same. I have tried other steels with the E's on the left leg and I can see the logic but actually I think it's easier to have the E's on the right leg as it is two separate actions to engage the A pedal with the E raise which is one of the most commonly used combinations.
I reckon that having the E's on the right leg means that it makes little difference whether A & B pedals are setup Emmons or Day as I'm not using my left knee in combination with these pedals at least not for the most common combinations.
In the end, IMHO, it's what you're used to and once the muscle memory is set it's difficult to change to another setup, though still possible with a lot of work and time.